Terif vs Liam

[Liam]

1939:

Standard, Benelux DOWed, captured easily... France assualted and pushed to it's borders... Denmark Taken with Poland, all easily

Now serious Losses for the Axis, aside from Norway Lost...

Following:

1940: France Falls fairly easily, no major losses, Norway and Sweden taken by the Axis in relatively Fast Action. Low Tech game all the way through '40 and Axis finally liberate Egypt, with Spain in fold, still no serious losses of any kind anywhere.

By the time the Minors begin to join, we prepare for Barbarossa. Bigtime action

1941: Germany assualts Russians in June, beforehand capturing Tunisia, Vichy Algeria, Syria and Portugal. Then following turn Iraq... You'd think we'd have Skyrocketing Morale? Not really, out of supply in the depths of Russia

USSR falls fast to the frontline, but in the depths Germans are held up. We're split into Two Fronts, Army Group A In the North, B in the South. South Is held historically and doesn't take Odessa for a few or the Donetz. Army Group A, captures Leningrad a bit late, by this time Russian tech is kicking in and Finland falls, so the benefit is lost. Huge Axis Blunder as the Southern Front begins to collapse for the Russians, we capture Kharkov and the closeness in proximity to Moscow brings Siberians in Summer! That is the end of the Russian offensive, it then becomes a stalemate for the of the game for us... until the fatale next move of the Axis

1942: Germany is faced with some major issues, Benelux was taken by the Allies, and the Allies use their Navy and Air to crash through the Baltic, though not able to take Norway and Sweden they take Denmark and destroy the Kriegsmarine. The Italian Navy seizes this opportunity and operates North to meet the low supply Royal Navy and American Navy. Key here is that the Americans have been in since Mid 1941 and that means that any Sea Lion is a dangerous move. We attack England shortly after the weather Clears. We manage to capture London and destroy a few units and inflict major damage upon the Brits and Americans defending there. It is not enough though as now the Americans and British have caught up in tech and are able to continually hamper supply to London and crush about 5 or 6 German Core Units. The game is pretty much over even with London in Axis hands

Russia is on the offensive and all will soon be lost... No way out! Germany blundered in Soviet Russia and in England. Unable to find it's objectives clearly enough, and unable to execute them to perfection against a far superior counter in each case

Few other players would've survived this Axis Game. LR1 Fighters, AT3, IW3, Heavy Tank1 in the end... At maximum nearly all corps and 6 HQs, soon pushing out every army out

It is hard to beat Terif on his turf, that is tactical manuevering. Even with an economic or an edge in techs.. One has to execute flawless Operations and Germany gambled grossly against Taking England, costing her a cool 2 Million Men killed or captured. Also Terif took very little losses in the East, just an HQ and a few minor units... Didn't push my advantage on him in the right way early on. Good Game, next one I'm taking him

[Retributar]

Hey Liam !,...just take him out at the Knee's, and bring him down to your size, for a fair fight!.

[Iron Ranger]

Against well played Allies I dont see how the axis can now win. One reason I asked for a more historical Siberian Transfer. Too many scripts IG for the allies benifit, too many low supply areas where they simply die on the view, diplo in its present form is VERY pro allies. About the only prayer they (axis) have is that with the lower max on tech for USSR they muck it up.

[TaoJah]

I am curious : why do you do a Sealion so late and not right after France falls ?

[Iron Ranger]

readness and you need to take out NA first.

[Terif]

This was in deed the perfect game for Liams Axis concerning weather, diplo and tech – but in the end he was too aggressive :

- Game started with 4 clear turns, so the french were barely able to hold their capitol through the winter but still managed to keep it till April 40 – 6 candidates for free french but none of them decided to continue the fight.

- Germany got its first diplo hit in Spain already in November 39 with +33%, Spain joined after only 3 hits in April 1940. Allies on the other side got a nice 9% hit in Irak so the convoy didn´t start till the second hit in April 40. First hit in USA was in June 40, then September 40 and the third and last one in June 41 where it finally started joining following that.

- In tech Germany was ahead the whole game with its IW3 / AT 3 until the last turns when Sealion started. Russia only managed to research Infantry Weapons 2 and later AT1, not even Heavy Tank research kicked in so they were stuck there at Lv 1 too. USA also only got IW 2 and AT1. Exception was England that managed to catch up to IW3 in mid 1942 when Sealion started.

Unfortunately allied scientists not only refused to research combat techs, but also economic techs...so both Russia and USA went with only Industry Tech 1 into Barbarossa despite Allies researching with a total of 3000 mpps.

Technically inferior and without IT also economically not far ahead (start of Barbarossa less than 500 mpps/turn, nearly the same as Axis that got around 450...), Allies had to be cautious with the targets they choose when Barbarossa got launched a bit early by Axis already in July 1941 (Russia only at 53%). So they only started commando raids like in West-Afrika where US forces took Cassablanca or at Brussel by cutting off the axis supply line to Spain and western France with a bit larger expedition force that had to be evacuated when too many Axis armies operated in the vicinity. Vichy France and Switzerland remained neutral till the end of game since the Axis troops were busy with allied special forces . Additionally Allies liberated Denmark and both empty norwegian coastal cities – enabling to send the heroic Royal Navy into the Baltic where despite axis support by land based airfleets and several ship repairs they sunk in an extensive battle every single german vessel. 3 of them lastly got hunted down at the northern swedish port where they tried to hide.

Meanwhile Axis moved forward very aggressively in northern and southern Russia – even taking Leningrad, Smolensk, Kharkov and one of the mines after a few turns. But with their aggressive approach they triggered Siberians already in Summer 41. A russian HQ then didn´t believe the Axis commander would send its units so recklessly forward and therefore got killed by several kamikaze units near Sevastopol. In return Russia executed half a dozen german armies and corps, liberating Kharkov and the mine in the process. Finland got conquered despite Leningrad in enemy hands, thanks to the Royal Navy that was protecting and bombarding the coast there at that time.

Western Allies were just preparing the real D-day and a Skandinavian expedition when they got news from their spotters along the british coast about a large gathering of Axis vessels around Brest and Brüssel, pretending they would have seen also lots of fisherboats and other landing crafts amongs them. Allied command didn´t believe it at first, but to be on the safe side the victorious US and Royal Navy got called home from the Baltic, and allied invasion forces in their transports got redirected towards Scotland. Allied high command still couldn´t believe Axis would be so suicidal to really start a Sealion when Allies had been preparing a D-day for 2 years now and took no real losses so far and therefore even didn´t remove their air from the coast and bombarded some amphibs instead.

So one of the airfleets got heavily damaged by the landing axis units when the first wave of Axis amphibs landed in southern England – manoeuvering through the allied fleet that was just sinking the italian navy...while allied bombers and airfleets were fighting it out with the 6 axis airfleets above their heads...at the end of the day all 3 italian battleships and both cruisers were at the bottom of the sea.

Since Allies didn´t believe into a serious Sealion they only placed 2 corps in London and the port, so London fell during the first wave. It got immediately liberated again but with the following amphib waves Axis finally were able to hold it after some turns. Nevertheless Axis took horrendous losses – in one turn they lost 3 of their IW3, AT3 armies and a HQ...and only the HQ was special...each turn several Axis units had to bite the dust...in August 1942 when the end came, Allies had more armies in England left than Axis possessed in total . The turn before the last axis survivors would have been killed in England and London finally liberated, Axis unconditionally surrendered. Meanwhile Russia liberated most of its lost territories and already entered Romania, so the Axis cause was in deed more than lost after this ill advised adventure to the british isles .

[Terif]

@Iron Ranger:

In version 1.04 both sides are now quite balanced and Axis have the same chances to win as Allies. Nevertheless for unexperienced players Axis is the more difficult one to play and both sides have to be played differently. Allies should always have the economical advantage, but Axis can concentrate its forces and have the advantage in combat which evens out the superior mpps of Allies.

In the end it only depends on how you play your side, Allies have no advantage against Axis at the moment. If you don´t believe it, let´s just play a game with me as Axis - I don´t care which side to play since both have the same chances to win .

[Iron Ranger]

Your wrong Terif. I dont have the number of games in then you, I didnt read the scripts; so I have no problem if you thoughts carry more weight then mine but your wrong. And this game above shows it more then I can think.

Reading this I just cant see Laim losing but he did. He had luck (tech and diplo), weather, good combat results (at the start it looks like) ect... and still he lost. Sure perhaps he made some huge blunders but still that doesnt mean the end.

I played the #2 on paz league not long ago (great guy so dont read anything into this), and crashed him with the Allies before 42. He looked at the board and just said 'the axis cant win this, I'm done'. Right now, everything (but USSR tech) is flowing the Allies way. For the wrong reasons I feel (the non historical date on the siberian transfer above is great example).

I know your view on SC is different then mine, your's is more balance: mine more historical. Two sides of a coin.

For the record:

I have one loss to Jolly vs 1.02 one of my first games, and 2 to Hellraiser (again 1.02 and I was new).

And have won all other games (several as axis; yes). Though my present game vs Laim I expect to lose and have 'gifted' two other loss's to guys just because I couldnt finish the game's before a patch (both were in 1940 - pre France falling). I'm sure I'll lose some/more in the future. Total of compleated games is under 20, so again I dont have your overall experance.

[Terif]

Yep, I come from the game balance viewpoint in multiplayer .

And Fall Weiss is at the moment balanced in V1.04. In my games I usually change sides each game against the same player and so far I can tell that both sides have no problem to win if played right.

V1.04: 74 games played in this version and no game lost so far - played equally Axis and Allies .

But it is a bit like in SC1 - an axis player that doesn´t know the standard strategies and basics has no chance against most allied players even without bid. In SC2 it is similar - if 2 unexperienced players play, Allies will most likely win because Axis needs to know how and when to conquer things while Allies can just sit back at first and see what Axis is doing (wrong). But between 2 experienced players that know what they are doing, both have the same chance to win since then all the rooky mistakes that can cost you the game drop out - and the Axis side has much more opportunities for such mistakes .

[ October 20, 2006, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Terif]

Finished today just another game with Hellraiser where I played Axis. This is a good example how Axis can win even when diplo, weather and tech is heavily in favour of Allies this time and gives them now a perfect head start. Even more meaningful concerning game balance since they were commanded by an experienced veteran player with some nasty surprises for Axis by him like during the french campaign .

AAR is here

[jon_j_rambo]

[Liam]

Terif is right about this, an inexperienced Allied Player has a greater chance of victory. Not someone who doesn't understand the game... You have to understand certian logistics and strategies, plus exploits. Otherwise Axis can toast you... You have to rely heavily on the Axis Experience, And Land Power... That is the key to victory... She has to push properly in all the right areas and I'm still learning how to win with Axis

Right now except vs Terif, I have not lost 1 Allied Game in Version 1.3 and I do not believe I have lost a Game in Version 1.2 as Allied either

So it is true, if you're not a perfect player Allies are much stronger... In this game, Against any other player I've seen so far I would've won the game.. Terif executed strategies I've never heard of or seen done before. Also he managed to stem a little exploit I found. I will not reveal, it may not have been my intention to stay in England despite the expensive Operational costs I nearly killed off his most expensive units.. Only he managed to block the port permanently so I couldn't leave

Also I should mention USSR had no tech, but Germany had only achieved LR1 by April 1941!!!

Hell, USSR now, done properly can create defenses that are impenetrable if you do not know what you're doing and how to counter them!

[hellraiser]

Since all of you punks never let me play Axis, now I am playing against Yoda and unravel the misteries of playing the grey side

As the Allies, I challenge everyone, without fear...well everyone xcept the green guy, who, to be honest, is a biatch

But his time will come