Commandos raid at Vaagso, Norway

[xerxes]

A tip for mac users with this scenario:

Increase your memory alloted to CM, some of the files get so big that CM will crash unless you allocate more memory. I just had a 2.3 meg file.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

I think the raid was in an edition of a magazine showing pictures of the battle site the and now.

I shall see if I can dig it out once I get my house unpacked after decorating.

Good to hear from you again Holien. I would love to see any details you have on the raid....if you have a scanner that is?

BTW if you designed any of those tourney games let it be either the game with those damn mountains or the defence of the German town on the side of the hill. Both maps rocked and the game balance was quite good.

Well i cannot claim any credit for the design of the scenarios - but i did playtest them and the B&T design team did a great job.

Anyway just thought I would say hello and let you know your work is liked

Ahhh - I shall reinstate you as my most favoured opponent Thanks H for the compliment.

How are you doing in the Tourney? Can you get another section win under your belt?

Best wishes

CDIC

[Holien]

Hi CDIC,

Just re-reading the thread and it slipped past me 1st time that you now have a sproglet!!!

Congrats...

As a special Sproglet present if you e-mail me your address I shall arrange for the magazine to be sent out to you.

I can not find the article at the moment as it is in a box somewhere but I do know where I can get the magazine and will send a copy over to my favorite chinese based player...

As for the tourney I have done moderately well so far and I am suffering a bit as well. I hope as always to do well but should pay better attention to where I should place TRP's.

As for your game I have just done the set up and found that some of the boats in the free placement zones will not move. Did you know this?

I can not say too much here as my opponent might stumble accross this post...

Anyway it is nice to be back on line after a two week lay off...

Catch ya later...

H

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi "H"

Yes many units are padlocked on both sides during setup even though they are in zones. I added the coloured zones to enable you to find all your units because it is a big map, and in the darkness you may miss some units as the allied colours blend in nicely with the terrain

I will drop you my address via e-mail - thanks for the offer!

Enjoy.

CDIC

[psklenar]

My friend & I finished earlier in the week. I'm not sure how, but I fought him to a Draw (ge was Allies, I was Germans). He had 700 casualties, I had ~650. I lost all of my bunkers, 90% of my AFVs (60-ish?) and all but 2 guns. He lost 80 AFVs. Lots of fires burning when all was said and done.

A fantastic battle CDIC! Thank you for sharing it with us,

[Buckeye]

Hey, CDIC, I'm crushed...I thought I was your most-favored opponent.

Seriously, Smitty and I are about 2/3 of the way through this new version, and it's going to be a nail biter. You sure like your scenarios big and chaotic, doncha?

Man, I'm getting carpal tunnel with all those units to control...and the reinforcements keep comin'.

Nice job on the revision. The first version was fun, but this one's better. Just wish you hadn't made it harder for my beloved Panzers to move around in the city!

[Capitalistdoginchina]

A fantastic battle CDIC! Thank you for sharing it with us,

You guys make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

Seriously, Smitty and I are about 2/3 of the way through this new version, and it's going to be a nail biter. You sure like your scenarios big and chaotic, doncha?

Oh yes i like em big, fast and exciting.

Nice job on the revision. The first version was fun, but this one's better. Just wish you hadn't made it harder for my beloved Panzers to move around in the city!

Thanks Keith. I put a lot of work into the design and playtesting. The comments i had from the playtesters made it even better and finely balanced.

Hey, CDIC, I'm crushed...I thought I was your most-favored opponent.

No, i said you were my most flavoured opponent

Now where is my turn

CDIC

[CMplayer]

Well I'm at turn 22 and I just wanted to say that CapDog you are evil, EVIL, EVIL! This is just so friggin' wicked.

That's all I wanted to say. (for now)

[Panther G]

Originally posted by windstarz:

I downloaded the scenario but havent looked at it yet. If someone would like to play it let me know. I would like to be on the defensive.

OK, I'll be Allies. Send me a setup:

rmfitzgerald@lycos.com

Regards,

Ryan

[Holien]

CDIC,

I have still to play this game and ROW II has taken all my CM time so far. From the comments here I am in for some fun.

I have just phoned through the order for the magazine and you should get (fairly soon via air mail) a copy of:-

Issue No. 109 (Published August 15, 2000)

THE VAAGSO COMMANDO RAID The Canadian Unknown Soldier. It Happened Here - Trieste. Pacific - Bora Bora.

I have still to find my copy but that is understandable as the house is still a tip and we have only just got the guest room painted and ready to put the furniture back in it.

I throughly recommend "After the Battle" magazines as they give a great treatment of many battles.

The web site is www.afterthebattle.com

Anyway back to work, let me know when you get the magazine what you think.

Cheers

H

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Greetings "H"

Wow, i kindly thank you for the gesture and the link. I had never heard of it before. If the magazine looks as good as it sounds i shall place an order at the site, but so far i could not see any info for orders in Asia. Not sure if i can afford the 600 quid for the 120 back order copies (With postage) but i am very keen to sign up for a subscription :cool:

Once again thanks.

Cheers

CDIC

[Panther G]

Wow! I just started this scenario (PBEM) as the Allies and this looks really great! I like the map, the briefing was great, and the It looks like I'm going to have quite the challenge as Allies... When I finish the scenario, I'll review it at the depot (has it been posted there yet?). Thanks for such a great scenario.

Ryan

[Michael Dorosh]

SPOILERS

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I just reread the excellent article in After the Battle on the Raid on Vaagso. Terry, was this scenario supposed to be a realistic portrayal of that event? The map in the magazine article looks quite different,and I don't see any mention of AFVs on the British side.

I am in the midst of playing this one, so don't want to have too much given away, but quite honestly, during my setup - realizing this was a Commando Raid - I did not set up with the idea of meeting AFVs. Granted few of the enemy AFVs

have been positively IDed yet, but is there any historical precedent for all the Stuarts, Kangaroos and armoured cars I currently see running around? I see no reference anywhere that the British landed any vehicles of any kind. Where

should I be doing my research? Can you identify the actual vehicles that were used in the raid for me, as I don't see any reference to this on the website I've found as well as the ATB article.

The limitations of the game engine are sorely felt in this one. Having to co-ordinate the loading of dozens of trucks and then give them all movement orders down the road(s) is challenging to be sure, but in the end a real pain. The scenario

seems like more of a logistical challenge than a tactical one. What do others think?

I don't mean to say the scenario is not fun to play, I am quite enjoying it and it is very close so far (just past the halfway mark) but it doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to the raid described in the article. I am especially disappointed with

the hordes of British AFVs that I was not expecting. Was this really necessary?

EDIT - the photos also show light ground snow present in the actual battle.

[ August 08, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Terry - if you want a scan of the article, including the map, shoot me an email at madorosh@shaw.ca. The photos look a lot like Tom's Battle of the Bulge terrain mods.

I just did an interesting test. If you put concret pillboxes in open ground, padlock them, then change the terrain into a building, you have a pretty good target for engineers - they automatically try and blow them up with their demo charges. It might be interesting to design the scenario using the pillboxes inside buildings to determine victory, since engineers can't lay demo on houses, this would be the next best way to simulate that.

You can also area fire on houses with flamethrowers - the Brits apparently deliberately fired at least one building during the battle.

You could come up with a sliding scale of objectives in this way - it would be possible to even make this a human vs AI only game with the player as the Commandos. I suppose a true rendition of the battle would be quite dull, as so few casualties were suffered in the real raid. Crack airborne and engineers against Exhausted green troops? Lots of possibilities.

The terrain was also quite hilly behind the town, see the pic below (not taken during the raid) of Holvika, a few hundred metres to the south.

[ August 08, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the info you posted here and maybe i should clarify a few things for you and provide some insights from the design point of view. I will try not to make any spoilers.

Due to my passion for huge scenarios i decided from the outset that the OOB would not be historical - Well, CM does not model Commandos anyway...so i used imagination and went for glider squads, airborne squads and engineers. At the scenario depot i explain that the OOB is not historical. I also explain that the scenario is loosly based on the Vaagso Raid. Unfortunately, it can be a sad fact that some historical scenarios (If created exactly to portray a battle), especially smaller type raids like this one which in reality had only a few casualties tend to be boring in CM. Hence i created the OOB to make the scenario exciting and fun to play.

There are indeed a lot of units to give orders too, the unit allocation is maxed out. I wanted the Germans to be reactionary rather than be in prepared positions and just sit and wait for the brits to show up like many scenarios, therefore the loading of transports ensures that the german player must form a strategy for his defence and deploy his men/equipment accordingly. It takes a few turns to get them all mounted and moving i know, a delay necessary to prevent players rushing to the shoreline with large numbers of men and material which would spoil the scenario. Once the Brits start to attack at different locations simultaneusly the german player will need to decide where to set up his defence. For me, this adds strategy and planning for both sides. Like i said i did not want a scenario where a dug in defender sits and waits. The various flags and landmarks ensure that you cannot defend, or attack all places at once in strength, so deciding where to defend first and what size force you will send there can effect the scenario in all sorts of ways. Good decisions will reap rewards for both attacker and defender.

The Raid on Vaagso did in fact take place with light snow on the ground and i did create a version with snow. However, when snow is added to the map all water turns to ice. The sight of assault boats on ice did not inspire me and made the scenario look odd, especially as the marsh areas dissapear completely with ice. It changed the entire outlook of the map for the worse IMHO. I hope that explains why i decided not to put light snow on the ground.

The article i used to design the map did not have a very detailed map like the one you posted above because it was printed in 1966, but i did have all the information for landmarks and so on from the article writer. My first creation/idea of this map was for an assault boat landing/Commando raid in Greece, but halfway through it i stumbled on the Vaagso article and it had so many similarities i converted the map to suit the Vaagso Raid. The map, in my opinion is as close to the raid as i could get since all major features, landmarks and terrain elements are there.

My wish was to create a scenario where the feel of a commando raid could be simulated (Not easy to do in CM), that meant fast hard hitting action, surprises for the unprepared defender, improvisation on both sides and critical decision making for both players to create a stimulating battle. An assault boat landing under fire was an essential element for me, it took a lot of testing to ensure that the landing will be succesful (Otherwise the scenario will fail before turn 10), but with acceptable losses to the Brit attacker. Some Axis units/fortifications must be sacrificed to portray a surprise night attack, but this was factored into the balance.

Whilst i think i did acheive my wish i am aware that Grogs might not approve, when you first showed an interest Mike i thought.....oh oh. This might not come up to Grog Dorosh's expectations for a historical portrayal of the Vaagso Raid.

The Brits do have plenty of AFV's, and the Germans have more than enough hardware to combat them, all Brit armour is light, highly mobile and fast - qualities that must be used if the raid is going to be succesful. Axis armour tends to be slow and turretless. Therefore, again, players must think carefully when using his assets if he want to do well. Both sides have advantages and dissadvantages, and i deliberately created that in order to ensure players use their assets to their strengths.

Michael, i hope that explains what i hoped to acheive with this scenario. At the depot i listed it as Semi-historical (Not OOB). I think it is a fair description because i hope to have captured the flavour of the commando raid at Vaagso on a map that has all the landmarks and terrain features of the real raid. It even has the Naval artillery according to the raid (But caliber could not be replicated exactly in CM).

So there you have it, I am very satisfied with the end result, the playtesters were very satisfied and judging from the e-mails i have received it is very popular. As with all scenarios there will be a few that it does not appeal to. I hope you enjoy it for what it is Mike and have fun.

Sincerely,

Terry

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I just did an interesting test. If you put concret pillboxes in open ground, padlock them, then change the terrain into a building, you have a pretty good target for engineers - they automatically try and blow them up with their demo charges. It might be interesting to design the scenario using the pillboxes inside buildings to determine victory, since engineers can't lay demo on houses, this would be the next best way to simulate that.

That sounds like a really good idea, which could be put to use in scenarios of this sort. Then you can specify victory conditions along the lines of...for every target pillbox (in a building) destroyed, you shift the AAR-screen victory result half a level in favor of the attacker. (or a third, or a whole step, or whatever leads to correct balance). So if the AAR screen turned up a draw, but one critical pillbox/building was destroyed, that would be a draw plus .5, or a halfway minor victory, for example.

SPOILER FOLLOWS:

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In our game, for example, my crossing from one of the islands turned into a failure due to my failing to remove one very intrepid AA gun. (and my failing to have a brain. The men there just shot one of their own officers) The objective on the other side of the strait is very important in the briefing, but in terms of the game, it's just another flag. So the player is in a dilemma, whether to play for flags, or play acc to the 'story'. Since there is no way on earth to demolish that row of heavy buildings, and no victory condition modifiers are given to make that more valuable than 'just a flag', the answer is given. I'm playing for the game now (which also makes sense since the scenario isn't actually historical)

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End of spoiler

Eventually, of course, we can hope that the game will develop to allow buildings to be designated as targets for demolition, or that other victory conditions can be put into scenarios by the designer, such as points for occupying certain locations for a period of time and then moving on.

I agree with the rest of your comments. I'd be frustrated if I based my initial strategy on the historical situation only to find that the scenario was actually fictional, but with a historical name tacked onto it.

Still it is one rockin' fine fight.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

That sounds like a really good idea, which could be put to use in scenarios of this sort. Then you can specify victory conditions along the lines of...for every target pillbox (in a building) destroyed, you shift the AAR-screen victory result half a level in favor of the attacker. (or a third, or a whole step, or whatever leads to correct balance). So if the AAR screen turned up a draw, but one critical pillbox/building was destroyed, that would be a draw plus .5, or a halfway minor victory, for example.

Although I agree that this may be a suitable compromise for Grogs who desire specific victory conditions it would be rather offputting for regular game players to fudge around with victory conditions and AAR's. Unfortunately the scenarios must always be created within the limits of the CM engine. I also hope that CMBB will allow more creativity for victory conditions and objectives. I am sure this was dicussed on some threads in the past months.

The objective on the other side of the strait is very important in the briefing, but in terms of the game, it's just another flag. So the player is in a dilemma, whether to play for flags, or play acc to the 'story'.

Hhmm, Isn't that the same for every scenario you play? it is the same whichever way you look at it, the Victory Flag must still be strived for because the flag is a victory condition in CM game terms and the location/building is stated as an objective in the briefing as it was in real life. Therefore it is academic whether you play for the flag or the story, in either case you as the commander must make the decision as you would in real life...do you go for it, or do you take an alternative route/strategy?

I'm playing for the game now (which also makes sense since the scenario isn't actually historical)

All your objectives are exactly the same as the real life objectives in the Raid on Vaagso, except the capture of the Glycerine factory. So your objectives are historical, the factories are historical, the 2 hotels are historical, the map is historical, the terrain is historical, the buildings/town is historical, the reservoir is historical - only the units you are using are not historical which you must know since you downloaded it from the Depot (It is stated there)....so i can't see your reasoning to change your outlook/strategy halfway through this battle just because your units are not exactly the same as they were in 1941 :confused:

I'd be frustrated if I based my initial strategy on the historical situation only to find that the scenario was actually fictional, but with a historical name tacked onto it.

After researching, designing and playtesting the scenario for 6 months i can assure you the historical name was not just tacked onto it. :mad:

Lets look at the difficulties of reproducing this Raid to be "historical"

1) The raid took place before the timeframe of CM. Therefore this scenario can never be historical without fudging.

2) This Raid was supported by RAF Hamdpdens which bombarded Vaagso and the defences just minutes before the boat landings. CM cannot replicate air support in a night, dawn, or dusk setting. End of historical accuracy

3) Commando units are not modelled in CM. End of historical accuracy

4) CM cannot allow buildings to be demolished via satchel charges or TNT as you have pointed out earlier. Your suggestion makes sense, but it is fudging is it not??

5) The Maaloy Island Battery was fired upon by HMS Kenya with Starshells prior to the bombardment with HE. Can you replicate that in CM?

6) Unless i design the map using a topo map i can never get it 100 percent right. A certain amount of imagination is needed to create a map that seems about right according to the info you have at hand.

7) This raid had landings in several locations up to 20 miles apart. CM cannot produce such a scale, so fudging must take place to allow certain landmarks to be included on a condensed map. The map is already huge. If you make a huge map, set it at night and give both sides the historical OOB you will have fun with a compass and torch trying to find each other for 36 turns

8) As a side note all the historical units ARE IN - HMS Kenya is modeled, so is MHS Offa, so are the engineers, so are the 3 x 3inch mortars which landed with the paratroopers (During setup) and so are the 4 x Maaloy Island 75mm guns. But sorry, in real life those guns were made in Belgium...EEEEK. No belgian made guns available to the axis in CM ! BTS Fix or do sumfink! I only have a choice to put in 75mm infantry guns, or 75mm antitank guns.....To make the scenario bigger, better, more fun and exciting i added a whole lot more units to both sides.

Maybe Scenarios should have warnings; - Grogs beware, historical accuracy cannot be truly guaranteed

Now, i don't pretend to be a historian of any sort, or to be able to re-create a map that is exactly like it was 45 years ago, but i know how to make a fun scenario based on a historical event that captures the feel/flavour of that raid.

Well, at least i like to think i do.

CDIC

[Holien]

Hi CDIC / Chaps...

You just can't please some people.

Anyway nice discussion and it has brought out some design considerations for trying to make games based on historical actions.

All a designer can do is to catch a flavour of the historical situation. If the designer catches that and produces a stonking nail bitting game then that is surely enough?

I have yet to play the game and I have avoided reading some of the spoilers but was surprised that the Brits get some vehicles. This does not cause me a problem as long as they could have been air dropped or landed by landing craft.

If it aides the gaming experience then all well and good. I am certainly not expecting an accurate reflection of the situation. I above all want great game play and a good challenge.

As for the magazine is it legal to scan images and send them to other people? The article on the battle (from memory) is very good and gives you a good flavour of what happened and the pictures of then and now really convey the action that took place.

If as a designer you wanted to reproduce a smaller part of it then that would be easier. I congratulate CDIC for suceeding in giving a large scale portait of such an action.

Looking at the setup I have a lot of choices to make as does my opponent and once the weekend arrives and I finish my last ROW game I should be able to finally get the show on the road with my patient opponent.

H

[xerxes]

No it's not legal, it's a clear copyright violation. Copying for personal use is ok and in some academic settings there are specific exclusions. Placing copyright protected material on the web is an infringement.

The widespread copying of mp3s shows that the level of respect for private property is reaching an all time low.

BTS should remove this immediately since they are culpable for aiding the illegal distribution of copyright protected material.

[Michael Dorosh]

Hi Terry - first off, I am glad you took my comments as they were intended to be taken, and I appreciate the clarification. I kind of got the idea this one was more for fun, which is perfectly acceptable. You may want more of a disclaimer in the briefing though - the armour heavy force mix really isn't what one would expect at first glance. Like I said, I am enjoying the play through.

I might tackle the boring "historical' version of this, if you don't mind, though I'll wait a while for people to download and play yours. Once CMBB comes out it may be a moot point anyway.

I don't see why some people (not you Terry) look at the word "grog" as if it was a dirty word. There are many styles of play and players. I certainly don't look down on anyone who prefer armour heavy fictional battles; I've played and enjoyed several myself. I do think that there is a paucity of infantry-only scenarios, and the use of Commandos and victory conditions outside of "capture the flag" is somethnig of interest to me as a change of pace.

Copyright on photos ceases after 50 years, so conveivably I could post all the wartime photos from the article, plus redothe maps myself and rewrite the copy. This is what I do for my other websites and there are no possible legal roadblocks to this.

The image above would be copyright of After the Battle, but is intended here not for profit and if anything is an advert for what a great magazine it is. Anybody who disapproves can cry to BFC if they like. It is temporarily housed on my server in any event and will come down in a few days.

Keep up the good work Terry! Thanks for allowing me to air my views here in a non-confrontational manner. I hope you'll have a spot for me on your CMBB dance card in the next year.

EDIT - oh, and yeah, I obviously didn't think of the effect ice would have on assault boats. The snow wasn't deep enough in the real action to have an effect on movement, in any event.

[ August 09, 2002, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[xerxes]

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[ August 09, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: xerxes ]

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi Terry - first off, I am glad you took my comments as they were intended to be taken, and I appreciate the clarification. I kind of got the idea this one was more for fun, which is perfectly acceptable. You may want more of a disclaimer in the briefing though - the armour heavy force mix really isn't what one would expect at first glance. Like I said, I am enjoying the play through.

Hi Mike, you are welcome. With hindsight i should maybe put something in the general briefing, i assumed that the info at the Scenario Depot would be enough because that is the only place it is hosted. If i do a revision i shall put in a disclaimer. Thanks for the tip.

I don't see why some people (not you Terry) look at the word "grog" as if it was a dirty word.

The word itself does not sound complimentary...unfortunately. However, i respect Grogs very much, i am always in awe of their knowledge, and how deep their knowledge goes and i admire you all for that. Since joining the B&T team i am becoming accutely aware of just how much knowledge is out there, and i am impressed - it gives me a chance to learn something on a subject that i find fascinating....WW2.

Keep up the good work Terry! Thanks for allowing me to air my views here in a non-confrontational manner. I hope you'll have a spot for me on your CMBB dance card in the next year.

Again, you are most welcome. We can certainly play a PBEM or two again when CMBB is released. I am also glad you accepted my explanations with undertanding. Thanks.

EDIT - oh, and yeah, I obviously didn't think of the effect ice would have on assault boats. The snow wasn't deep enough in the real action to have an effect on movement, in any event.

I designed and playtested 4 different versions of the battle, the snow version did not work for various reasons. The final version (The one you are playing) worked the best.

Best wishes

Terry (CDIC)

[Michael Dorosh]

Terry - my opponent sent the setup to me, so I never saw the explanation at the Scenario Depot! Something to keep in mind for all prospective scenario designers. I am guilty of this myself; I put up some scenarios at my own site with detailed historical descriptions and notes on play, not realizing that a PBEM opponent would probably not have the benefit of seeing that stuff.

[CMplayer]

Spoilers

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CapDog,

My comments weren't intended to suggest the scenario wasn't lots of fun to play, or that lots of research and interest haven't gone into it. I was responding mainly to M Dorosh's posts, since he is my opponent in this battle.

As for historical/fictional, I'm not too concerned with labeling it. I mainly wanted to comfort Michael for being badly suprised by my vehicles. He had every reason not to believe there'd be any, and probably planned accordingly. He did his research, like a good grog, and was punished for it. I can sympathize.

As an example of what I meant, In the first scenario I started playing in the Rumblings of War tournement, I was playing Brit paras trying to take and then hold a town in Normandy. To try to get an edge, I checked out maps of the battle, and discovered that Pegasus Bridge was located just a few hundred yards to the East of the map. I concluded the German reinforcements would not come from that direction and planned accordingly. If they had, my frustration might have been somewhat like Michael's over suddenly having his truck convoys preyed upon by totally incongruous packs of honey tanks. Of course it could be a 'what if'. Pegasus might not have held. Anything can happen.

Looking at the stuff Michael posted, it appears that in reality the factories and town were strung out in a long narrow stretch between the water and significantly higher ground behind. This would be typical of my experience of Norway, tho I haven't been to Vaagso. In any case, this topography would put a distinctive mark on the battle. In the same way, the infantry character of this commando raid would have been very distinctive. So the arrival of vehicles, and the larger, 'rounder', more inland town makes for a different kind of battle, with a totally different 'feel' than that raid probably had. Topography + OOB + objectives yield the character of a battle.

On the other hand, the island landings, and ford crossings felt much more authentic and were really anxiety filled.

About the factory objective 'just being a flag' what I meant was this. The briefing emphasizes the importance of destroying the factories, using arty if necessary. But getting enough _accurate_ heavy arty fire onto the buildings of the larger factory (for no points) is next to impossible even in the unlikely event of getting LOS to the impact area. Destroying the buildings amounts to wasting arty that could better be used for other purposes. So after some desultory attempts to blow up the factories with the HMS Kenya artillery, I shifted it to bombarding the town instead. This is what I meant by changing my approach, that I gave up the story in favor of trying to just win the game. Again, that was mainly just meant as an apology to Michael because shelling the town itself would be of no military value, and could kill a lot of Norwegians needlessly. It's quite out of character with the scenario's rationale and I feel gamey for doing it. I just wanted to communicate that to my opp. I'm sure he understands.

I have to say I was mystified by Holien's remark about not being able to please some people. I'm very pleased with this fine scenario so far. So what if I consider it fictional rather than semi historical! It's all just labels. I just figured open dialogue would be more interesting than 100% praise.

[ August 10, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[Capitalistdoginchina]

About the factory objective 'just being a flag' what I meant was this. The briefing emphasizes the importance of destroying the factories, using arty if necessary. But getting enough _accurate_ heavy arty fire onto the buildings of the larger factory (for no points) is next to impossible even in the unlikely event of getting LOS to the impact area. Destroying the buildings amounts to wasting arty that could better be used for other purposes. So after some desultory attempts to blow up the factories with the HMS Kenya artillery, I shifted it to bombarding the town instead. This is what I meant by changing my approach, that I gave up the story in favor of trying to just win the game. Again, that was mainly just meant as an apology to Michael because shelling the town itself would be of no military value, and could kill a lot of Norwegians needlessly. It's quite out of character with the scenario's rationale and I feel gamey for doing it. I just wanted to communicate that to my opp. I'm sure he understands.

Now i see your angle i appreciate what you mean. It is good to clarify such points. I made the objective the same as the historical objective, to destroy the factory. I realise that is not easy to do, so by placing a flag there i assumed capturing it was the same thing. I did not think players would literaly try to blow it up LOL. Enough arty from HMS Kenya would do the trick, but you are right, better targets await the large HE shells Use your arty wherever you want, the town was evacuated just 10 minutes ago And there will be plenty of military targets there if Michael has deployed his defences wisely!

Your example of the ROW tourney is a good point. Thanks.

Hope you both continue to enjoy it......the emphasis is on fun fun fun.

Best wishes

CDIC

[ August 10, 2002, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Captitalistdoginchina ]