Halftrack and Armored Car uses???

[Zaffod]

Ok.. ive had the game for over a week now.. and i am certain for one thing... if i was a halftrack driver/gunner back in the big one.. i would have written my last will and testimony as soon as i was given the assignment... If halftracks are good at one thing.. ITS GETTING BLOWED UP!!!!!!!!! Even in close combat... you CAN NOT make an armored car, halftrack, recon vehicle successfully support your troops for the duration of a scenerio... Think of getting them remotely close to enemy infantry (even beyond grenade range) and they are toast as well. I wont even get into the battles ive used thim in trying to flush out infantry in dense forest... What is a good employment of halftracks and ACs after deploying troops etc. SHould they stay well out of reach and if possible go to a hill and MG from long range? should they be always speeding accross the battlefield to and fro distracting enemy fire??? ARRRHGGHHHHH!!!!! ANy info would be appreciated...

Zaff'

[MadDog0606]

I haven't tried using halftracks yet. I'm going to try this in a QB with some Pumas. But I have been watching how the TacAI uses them and it places them (the halftracks) behind the infantry as fire support for advancing infantry. Or in scattered trees when on the defense, with some infantry has support. Sometimes it does put the halftracks out in the open and it gets toasted for it's trouble. But those halftracks still do damage to my advancing infantry until the halftracks were removed from play.

The only time I use heavy armor (tanks, never halftracks) up close with infantry is when I have made sure that there are no enemy infantry within handgranade range of the advancing infantry. I advance my infantry first to the next clump of woods or scattered trees and then I race my tanks up to them so that the tanks can support the infantry on their next advance.

I learned this the hard way by having my tanks pretend to be the 7th Cav To The Rescue and getting barbecued instead.

[Fionn]

And one of the highest praises an AI can get is that it is actually TEACHING people correct tactics.

HTs should be used to move troops quickly into position and provide them with fire support in the assault phase BUT they are not tanks or armoured cars and are EXTREMELY fragile.

That said they can be quite effective. One of my HT platoons went into action vs the flank of a US company. 2 HTs were quickly knocked out after causing only 3 or 4 casualties. The other 2 survived ( but with damaged guns) but gunned down over 40 US troops and provided enough covering fire that the platoon of Panergrenadiers with them gunned down another 40 or 60.

End result: One quick, co-ordinated dash into the flank of a US company destroyed the company at the cost of less than a dozen men and 2 HTs. You just have to use them right.

[James Bailey]

Zaffod,

As Fionn said, correct application is key. The Halftrack is NOT a beginner's vehicle.

One of the basic things to keep in mind is that the H/T really shines in a combind arms role. It allows the grunts to ride along behind the tanks in a blitz/breakout. The Germans used H/T early in the war in this fashion very effectively. But in the role that we are playing in CM -- close tactical combat -- they are much less important.

The best use is against an infantry heavy opponet lacking combind arms weapons. They allow infantry to close with enemy without having to travel unexposed through MG fields of fire.

Don't use them in the roles you are suggesting. Once the grunts are gone, use MG as supression at safe distance behind some Cover and Concealment.

-James.

[Lorak]

After taking Fionn's advice and trying the german 251/16 flame half-track, I love it.

If you can supress the enemy squads well enough to move one of these into range (50-55 meters). They can decide the battle. They either force the enemy out of their foxholes/houses into your fire lanes or just break them and send them packing. It really is a nasty beast.

With all half-tracks you just have to keep them moving, or only stop them for a turn. Otherwise mortars will start falling, and we know what that will do.

Lorak

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[Zaffod]

I have to try the flame HTs, havent used em yet... NOTHING was better in Close Combat than to sneak one of those jobs up on a bunch of infantry in a building and hearing that 'whoo-hhoooosh' and then watching the entire squad go down... just a liiiiiittle too effective... In CM they seem to merely suppress the enemy... ive never seen flame do an extraordinary amount of damage to anything. I wonder if that is accurate.... hmmmmm Fionn????

Zaff'

[L.Tankersley]

HTs are nice for mid-to-long-range fire support and for quickly moving troops around. In one QB I'm playing right now (a meeting engagement), I initially used my HTs to get a platoon of infantry up to the victory flags fast, then moved them back behind trees/ridges until I could see what was what. Now that the battle has progressed, I've used one to go back and shuttle a weapons team into a better firing position (saving several minutes of walking time), used a second to provide grazing fire down a road the enemy has to cross, and sent a third sweeping around the enemy flank to suppress their infantry from the side/rear (being careful to keep some high ground between me and the last remaining enemy armored vehicle).

Zaffod (should that be "Zaphod?"), one other thing you might find amusing: US halftracks were called "purple heart boxes" during the war.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[19 Echo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

Zaffod (should that be "Zaphod?"), one other thing you might find amusing: US halftracks were called "purple heart boxes" during the war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My maternal grandfather drove a HT, and later commanded an M-16. I don't know the details, but apparently there were at least a couple of occasions in which only he survived. He drove back from a mission with the crew area all shot up and full of dead GI's. He started drinking heavily after that. The old line about the German bullets just going in one side and bouncing around for a while was true.

-- 19 Echo

[JWorthing]

Allied HT with .50 cals have been very helpful to me. They've managed to take out a lot of puma's and other enemy HT's. I tried using them as close support vehicles but they get knocked out pretty fast. They usually work better as close support when the enemy is already supressed. Or if you really want to be half-hazard with them, send them as scouts so you can know where enemy concentrations are. It is GAMEY actually, now that I think of it.

[Guest Michael emrys]

The .50 cal on the American halftrack is a pretty long range weapon (in CM terms), so there really is no reason to move them in close enough for German infantry to have a chance to close assault them. Stand off and go plinking.

Michael

[MadDog0606]

I have dicovered the joy of useing HT's. I was playing a Meeting Engagement last night. Started at 8PM and didn't end until 1AM, (damn CM for keeping me up late at night).

I let the computer pick the troops. I played the Germans and let the AI be the British. The Computer picked two platoons of Panzer Grenadiers with halftracks and two platoons of motorized infantry, with two Tigers, one Jadpanzer (I think thats what it was called), and a Stug III.

I raced the Brits to the village where the victory flags were, droped my troops off. Had the troops race into the buildings with a clear field of fire for the likely avenues of approach that the Brits would take. I then hid the HT's until I was sure where the Brits were comming from. Once I became engaged with the AI, I brought the HT's up and placed them either in the scattered trees next to buildings or between buildings were they would not be exposed to fire from the side.

Those HT's were devastating to the attacking Brits. The Brit AI got so pissed that it dropped smoke on the village for about 3 turns. Me, I would have dropped HE on the damn village just to get revenge.

Now, there was a discussion in some other thread about the possibility of the AI cheating when it comes to avoiding enemy fire during a turn. I feel it doesn't cheat. It all comes down to self preservation on the part of the TACAI. Toward the end of the battle I had decided to send one HT and the Jadpanzer to support an attack being made by two platoons of troops. The Jadpanzer and the HT were doing flank shots at the enemy while the two platoons of troops were attacking a church. Well, half way through this little side battle, out of the corner of my eye (so to speak) I see the HT backing up for all he is worth. And I'm thinking "What the hell, I didn't tell him to do that". I played that turn back and noticed that the HT was being shelled by a 2" mortar and that he (the HT) was performing self preservation. The Jadpanzer wasn't backing up because he did not fell threatend but the HT did feel threatened, so the HT got the hell out of dodge.

[jgdpzr]

As everyone else has said, the key to using halftracks is timing and recognizing the right combination of factors: suppression of enemy units, presence of AT assets or even heavy MGs (especially the M2 if you are commanding Hanomags as they definitely have an aversion to the Ma Deuce, with damn good reason), mortars, etc.

I have found that I will get the most out of HTs when I insert them when the above conditions are in my favor AND when they are used en masse. One of my favorite tricks has been to use the HTs to shuttle infantry up to some woods and unload. I will then work the HTs around another side of the woods or cover and wait until the infantry is starting to engage the enemy. Once the enemy's attention is focused on the infantry, I will swing my HTs from behind the cover and advance in formation (line, or echelon left or right depending on terrain, enemy positions, etc.) focusing their full firepower on the infantry engaging my infantry. The combined MG fire from the HTs, along with the fire coming from my infantry, generally create serious headaches for enemy infantry. Obviously, such use as this depends on many considerations (terrain, enemy assets, etc.).

The key to using HTs is protecting them until their moment arrives. Unlike tanks, they cannot stand and fight for any length of time on most battlefields. And unlike ACs, their relative lack of speed, and wide flank silhouette, mean they can't be kept alive simply by constant, high-speed movement. But properly inserted, they can be potent force multipliers.

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"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger

The Dude abides.

[Guest AlfieE]

I agree with most of the above comments. Whilst not yet receiving a copy of the game I can't comment on how they play. But I'm a keen reader and I've swotted up on German tactical use of H/Ts during the war.

Primarily half-tracks are armoured transport, as I believe has been noted above, highly useful in strategic breakouts.

Tactically speaking conventional Hanomags (i.e. Sdkfz251/1) were used for medium/short range infantry support, as reflected in the various variants produced (e.g. Sdkfz 251/9, 10)

I've found evidence for two tactical deployments. When approaching urban environments, tanks and other AFVs stop short to provide long range fire support and covering fire, H/Ts move to middle range and debuss their infantry, the infantry then advancing under their covering fire. When moving across open terrain H/Ts were preceded by their respective tanks, infantry debussing to deal with any nuisances encoutered by the armour.

Anecodotal evidence from Normandy, for example, suggests H/Ts were also employed in rapid evacuations of positions or in sudden flanking maneouvers or in recon. In the case of assaulting a village, some H/Ts may have been employed in circumnavigating the town in order to deploy on the opposite side to the primary assault, thus preventing any reinforcement/retreat of the defenders.

How this translates into game terms I'm not sure, but all of the above suggestions incorporate aspects that can be historically testified; a credit to the game designers, I think.

Don't know if this is of any use but I've included a sort of reference to get you started (if you're interested):

Osprey Military Vehicle series relating to Germans H/Ts has a section on their tactical use.

Sorry to go on.

AlfieE.

[Guest AlfieE]

Sorry, forgot to add that H/Ts were invariably left behind the lines of defensive deployments, an indicator prehaps of their fragililty? For example, Kurt Meyer specifies that the H/Ts were deployed behind the Germans lines in the defences south of c. August 1944.

Cheers - AlfieE.

[Andre76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaffod:

you CAN NOT make an armored car, halftrack, recon vehicle successfully support your troops for the duration of a <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, everyone has replyed when it comes to HT, but what about the recon? Well, I've been playing as the British for a couple of battles now, and I really have begun to apriciate their Daimler. At 9 (!) points a piece, you can afford to buy a few. Firt you use them to recon (oh!) and afterward you have a couple of alternatives. I find the useful for taking out (or at least distubing) enemy Guns, flanking them and attacking them from the rear. After you've eliminated enemy armour you can drive the Daimlers around the flanks and let the harass the enemy from the rear. great fun

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André

[jabberwock]

There's nothing like seeing the surprise on the enemys face when you use scout cars to quickly move 1-2 HMGs to positions behind him. So much for his retreat to better defended ground!

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...

-HAL 9000, 2001

[Zaffod]

Thanks for all the info guys... I have this formula stuck in my head - get the vehicles closer and the enemy will run.. Which totally isnt the case. Keeping HTs in scattered trees at a good distance has worked for me the best so far. However, invariably a HT WILL succumb to enemy fire if a)it is near the front line for a sustained period of time and b)if you do not hold the decisive advantage in number of arms to bare... Having them retreat when they are needed seems senseless to me.. so i usually take the risk... I still would have rather been the dude that had to cut the barbed wire before an attack rather than an HT crew member..

thnx again..

Zaff'

[Guest grunto]

I think of the SPW 251/1 as the workhorse of the armored infantry. I use them to carry flamethrowers and heavy machineguns. Then they rush up under the best cover possible and drop these units off near the point of the attack, but still in cover if possible. Then if the attack reaches a critical point the machinegun halftracks enter the fray. That's ideally how I use them.

Sometimes though they just get picked off, hopefully without any of the aforementioned MG42s or Flamethrowers.

If you want a German halftrack with some nice punch try the SPW 251/9. The problem is that it can't take too much fire.

The American M3 halftrack series is slightly-better armored than the German SPW series. Also the .50 cal has better penetration. For that matter the American .30 cal has better penetration than the MG42. The MG42 though has an awesome rate of fire (ROF).

The American T8 armored car cannot carry a heavy machinegun so I use M3 halftracks or medium-to-heavy tanks as carriers. Load the T8s up with infantry half squads and drive them into thinly-held enemy positions.

The thing to remember is that the .50 cal wreaks havoc on any German halftrack or armored car. If you run into tanks it's the job of your vehicles carrying the Bazooka units to get in close and finish those off, or use whatever heavier vehicles you have for that.

Make no mistake though: In Combat Mission the .50 cal American vehicles rock!!

The German PSW234/1 through 3 aren't without their charm either, but they're so vulnerable to all types of fire.

With the Americans you can actually do a superior 'recon in force' using the armored cars and halftracks provided them in the game, than you can with the German 'light armor.'

Again it's when you starting throwing German infantry, AA guns, and tanks into the picture that everything becomes a bit dicey for everyone.

I find that in these battles, one side always loses, but often both sides lose.

That is to say, that sometimes you sweep or are swept off of the mapboard in short order. Other times you'll be using your last remnants against your opponent's last remnants as the game turns wind down.

I've had that twice with Deadline.

One time my Shermans and M10s were waxed by his light armor, but a T8 or T20 (M20?) scout car survived and proceeded to zip around the battlefied, toasting every one of his remaining vehicles in return before it was itself knocked out. There were then no vehicles in action on either side.

From there I charged his two AA guns and in the end it was a bunch of tattered half squads from both sides fighting over the center of a town.

Indeed there's always a loser but sometimes there are two.

So protect your light armor and use it as transport and additional fire support (only after a battle has heated up to the point where you can enter these units into the fray 'without being noticed'), but try to keep it out of the open, particularly if it is German. The Americans on the other hand can go toe-to-toe with a variety of German forces.

Opponents will catch on but I can't tell you how many have been surprised and sometimes shocked when my T8s and assorted M8s have hit the battlefied, usually in one of their flanks.

I've had less success attacking with light German forces, but in a 1000-point battle I always throw in a few 251/9 halftracks at least. This is cheap mobile firepower.

Andy

[Zaffod]

Very very udeful info, Andy... I was just going to post a question regaurding the 'invulnerability' of american halftracks to german small-arms fire. On many occasion, the german halftracks will simply up and leave if they get fired too long from even a tiny rifle squad! On the otherhand.. ive had an MG42 and 2 SMG squad sit and pepper an American HT to death (at around 150mtrs) with no effect at all!!! This is very frustrating. Since the SPW crews bail at the slightest hint of trouble, youd think the American HT crews would do the same... they seem a bit overconfident

Historically speaking, do you think this was actually the case?? And HMG 42 HAD to have been able to penetrate an American HT at close range! I guess im begginning to realize the pros n cons of each side more n more...

Zaff'

[kosn]

I have used US Armored Cars to stunning effect. I had lost 5 QB meeting engagements in a row playing the US vs Germans using various combinations of vehicles. On game six I purchased a handful of AC's and one or two tanks. (These were about 500-700 point battles) I managed to take out the AI's tank and I ended up with 2 total victories in a row. I mean the victory was 97 to 3. The enemy infantry were stopped cold as I drove the AC's up into position.

The next game I played Britain vs Germans and chose a bunch of Brit AC's thinking I had came across a relatively unbeatable "strategy." I cleared out the enemy tanks, but it took forever to coax the AC's up to the front line. They loved to stop in their tracks retreat after hearing gunfire.

All things being equal, the US AC's seemed to hold their ground much better than the British AC's under similar circumstances.

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kosn:

I have used US Armored Cars to stunning effect. On game six I purchased a handful of AC's and one or two tanks. (These were about 500-700 point battles) I managed to take out the AI's tank and I ended up with 2 total victories in a row. I mean the victory was 97 to 3. The enemy infantry were stopped cold as I drove the AC's up into position.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar experience for me. I'm learning my way around with a combination of "book-learnin'" and experimentation - QB's are PERFECT for this.

I'm doing mostly random force choices now, and my most lop-sided victory (100-0) was a platoon of infantry (US), a Sherman, two Bazooka's and a (useless) mortar. All transported by HT's and an armored car. Everybody races to the victory location (lucky on the covered approach), jumps out - infantry moves up, followed by a couple of HT's, while the Sherman and the rest of the HT's race around to the enemies rear.

Lotta luck on my side, but those HT's don't seem so shabby!

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaffod:

... I was just going to post a question regaurding the 'invulnerability' of american halftracks to german small-arms fire. On many occasion, the german halftracks will simply up and leave if they get fired too long from even a tiny rifle squad! On the otherhand.. ive had an MG42 and 2 SMG squad sit and pepper an American HT to death (at around 150mtrs) with no effect at all!!! ... Historically speaking, do you think this was actually the case?? And HMG 42 HAD to have been able to penetrate an American HT at close range! I guess im begginning to realize the pros n cons of each side more n more...

Zaff'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's quite possible that the American halftracks were more heavily armored, and had machineguns which - round for round were better against armored targets.

The MG42 though could penetrate the US M3 and its rate of figher was much higher.

In the game it does seem like the .50-cal M3 usually beats the German SPW251/1.

It seems reasonable to me to think that the Americans had better halftracks. They were probably designed later. At least in Combat Mission it seems like many of the German units are kind of 'archaic' while the American ones are more state-of-the-art and mass-produced to a higher level at the same time.

The thing the US didn't have was the armored thickness of some of the German AFVs, nor their excellent all-around guns.

I doubt that BTS's figures for turret speed are out of whack. If you could put togther some 2kilometer engagements you would see where the legend of the German armor was born. It probably wasn't usually within the ranges CM battles are typically fought in.

Now I've read here that most engagements were fought at something like 800 meters or less. But the point here is that the legend of the German 'Tiger' was probably formed as a result of some of the longer-range engagements which were fought against them by the Allies. I have a theory that at about 1-2 kilometers the Germans start to shine. The Panther's 75mm would be deadly at 2km I would think.

Andy

[Oddjob]

I've had success with halftracks in two QB's. One was at night in the fog. I had dismounted infantry scale a strategic hill overlooking a small valley with the victory location. On the right flank I had the HT's sweep around a small village with one mounted squad. With the HT's still unspotted in the rear I sent my infantry down in an assault on the valley. This drew the attention of the defenders there and, hopefully, distracted any enemies in the village as well. I sent the HTs and the now dismounted squad at the village from the rear and surprised an allied HT and an armoured car. Mopped them up with no losses. The infantry in the valley meanwhile was fighting for their lives against dug in riflemen and a gun of some kind. With the village secured I formed a loose line of the HT's and crept them towards the woods (to concentrate firepower and confuse with multiple targets). After the gun was overrun by a decimated squad I rolled the HT's forward as one and filled with woods with machinegun fire. That was the end of that. Lesson learned: If they can't see you they can't shoot you - HT's and presumably scout cars are lethal on night missions if used boldly and offered some infantry support.

The other example is probably obvious but when defending a town, again as German, I wanted to keep my men in cover and hidden but to slow the advance of the Brits. Mortars helped (placed behind a building with a very effective combat leader) but the HT's could speed down alleys, pop out where needed, fire and disrupt an attack before retreating unseen. I lost one to tank fire and another to an arty barrage but two lived very active lives and survived the engagement.

[Fionn]

If you want to see where the legend of the Tiger I was formed and why it was formed this is what you must do.

1. Create a FLAT map with NO trees which is 1 km wide by 3km deep.

2. Purchase one US or British armoured company armed ONLY with Sherman 75s. ALL crew must be Regular or Veteran.

3. Purchase 2 Tiger Is or Panthers. ALL crew must be Crack or Elite.

4. Set up the Allied forces at one end of the battlefield. Set the Germans up at the other end.

5. Now have the Allies advance into the guns of the Germans over this wide open terrain.

6. As you count the kill stats for your Tigers or Panthers you will realise why it got such a reputation.

This situationcomes close to modelling a North African or "open steppes" battle. The German tanks did NOT fare well in Normandy compared to these two regions.

[Oddjob]

Just had another incident. One of the small premade scenarios. I had a single greyhound and an understrength infantry company trying to hold off a German horde. The 'elite' .50 team and most of the guys on the hills bought it after a less experienced guy opened up. The firefight started at range while a stug and mortars pounded my forward positions. What saved the day was the Greyhound that ran around the German formation and shot up a halftrack and routed a half dozen German formations shooting as it went. Then she came up behind the Stug - boom. And then a green German HMG team. And then a platoon leader who was fleeing an arty barrage. All told she killed two vehicles, 18 men and took 6 prisoners. That was fun!