Help with Large Scale Armor Battles

[OG_Gleep]

I am having trouble with Large Scale Armor Quick battles vs a human opponent.

I know my first problem: I am not picking effective forces. Any tried and true rules for 4000+ point games? Any thing you won't go into a large battle without? Feel free to go as basic as you want here. Assume I know nothing =)

Second Problem: Overall tactics. I tend to divide my forces in to 3 or 4 large armor groups. There is never enough to cover the whole map, so I buy some AT guns, and some AT Infantry and set them up on the flanks or pockets I can't cover. This actually has worked quite well for me. The problem I have handling the armor. My Armor Squads tend to get chewed up fast. I am playing a PBEM right now, and he is really handing it to me. Within the first handful of turns, he decimated two of my squadrens while taking minimal losses himself. I advanced and he brought his armor out in pockets to their flanks and chewed them up.

I am about to start a 5,000 pt battle with a good friend of mine, but don't want to repeat the mistakes I have made.

I am Germans, the map should be set to Rural, Mod Tree, Mod Hills. Don't know the date or conditions other then its a meeting engagment. There are no rules or stipulations as far as unit selection. What units would you suggest as nessisary? How much points should be spent on each unit type? I have a tendancy to prioritize in terms of firepower. Heavy tanks are more important then Med tanks, Med Tanks are more important then Light tanks, etc etc.

What should be the general plan? Do I keep my forces together? Or do I spread them out? Do I keep my armor still until my infantry spots him? Once Armor is sighted...do I bring all my armor to bear, or just move in one to do the dirty work?

Anyhow you see where I am going with this. By nature, I tend to like small, clean scenarios. The large ones tend to get too chaotic for my tastes, so I never played them on my own. Also, I love infantry battles, so the majority of my solo game play has always been infantry conflics, with a little armor for support.

I know there are probably tons of posts covering this subject, but its 5:00 am, and I have to get some sleep and pick my units when I wake up.

Anyhow thanks in advance.

[GRUMLIN]

Well, I find that the majority of german tanks have to be treated like mobile pillboxes - hold em in position to take out nme at a distance, whislt pushing infantry well forward to hold ground and identify good hulldon / non LOS positions that you can scoot pIV to. Also, dont forget the assault halftracks for cheap mid-range tank killers...if you get them in good positions that is....

btw, I have the worst luck with german tank accuracy, so my tactics have been forced to be defensive - in one PBEM I have running, two veteren tigers missed with 4 shots each against a stationary sniper shocked sherman at 500 meter range...

G

[Redwolf]

Questions:

When you say armor battle, you just mean the Quickbattle setting of "armor", do you?

The Quickbattle setting for armor still leaves a lot of points for infantry. Especially as the americans he can still seek to overrun you with grunts.

How come you do not know the month? It is important, for the Panzerfaust-100 being pretty powerful. When it is available, you should try to hunt his armor with squads.

If this is an armor battles as in "he will come with lots of tanks", then a bunch of Jagdpanthers is very clearly your best choice. But I doubt it is, the armor setting in the quickballte selection does not ensure this.

[OG_Gleep]

Armor, meaning Armor setting in the QB. The point breakdown is:

Infantry 2600

Support 1560

Vehicle 1000

Armor 5000

Artillery 1000

You seriously think it is a good idea to hunt tanks with infantry on Large Maps? Especially if he is allies? Allies have really good infantry killing armor.

Also, what if it was unrestricted? Would you spend more then half your points on infantry?

[JasonC]

You can decide to use an armor heavy force, or an infantry-HE heavy force.

A good rule of thumb for the former is to spend about half the points on "armor". A good rule for the second is to spend half on infantry-support, and near the maximum allocation in the artillery category, all 105mm or larger caliber.

The idea of the former is to win the armor war and then clean up with tanks vs. infantry. The idea of the second is to run the enemy out of squad infantry and then hold all the difficult terrain on the map with your own infantry, where his tanks have trouble getting at them. Either can work.

If you go for the armor heavy version, you need decent HE throwing ability in the armor. Because after you win the armor war, you then need to blast enough infantry to win that one. You still need decent amounts of squad infantry and at least little artillery, to deal with woods interiors and such. You can skimp on the slower items in the "support" category, and don't need all that much artillery.

One way to get the HE power necessary is to spend a portion of the armor points on thinner skinned HE chuckers - StuH, Hummel, Wespe, PSW-234/4 with 75mm, or SPW-251/9. StuH being the most versatile of those, Hummels potentially the most deadly but also vunerable and thus "touchy" to use right. The others are cheap, and the 75mm ones use "vehicle" category points (more important in a "combined arms" force type, though).

Then you keep these HE chuckers back until you have already made progress in the armor war. In a large fight, you might spend as much as 500 points on these types (e.g. 2 Hummel and 6 SPW-251/9), with 250 a minimum (e.g. 3 StuH).

Besides these HE chuckers, the bulk of the force needs to be armor good at fighting other armor. Which means you want front armor plates that bounce typical Allied shells - Hetzers, Jagdpanzers, Tiger Is, Panthers. Hetzers are limited in their anti infantry ability, though, due to small ammo loads. Jagds are a more rounded choice for a cheap AFV. Tiger Is have strong AT and good HE too, but in turn US 76mm guns can hurt them. Pz IVs have turrets and faster ones than most of the rest, but their armor is weak enough that they are rarely the best choice. StuGs have a similar weakness but at least they are cheap, and in the case of the StuG-IV also have a decent HE load.

There really isn't a lot of point in mixing the types of the main armor war AFVs, and realistically it would be more common to see one model in up to company strength. The HE vehicles can be additional varieties of course. You will give a typical Allied force the most trouble with a large number of thick front AFVs (e.g. 10 Jadgpanzers, or 6-8 Panthers or Tigers) preceeding a decent force of HE chuckers.

Always scout ahead with infantry. Small scout forces first - half squads - full platoons on line behind those. Tanks belong ~200 yards behind that wave of "main body" infantry. Work in pairs, never alone. Lone tanks are easy to jump from 2 sides, while a pair will often kill a shooter that bags the first, leading to nothing worse than an even exchange. Don't put them right on top of each other, but close - 100 yards apart or less.

Then maneuver those pairs around the battlefield, with a platoon of infantry ahead of them. Walk the areas you have LOS to forward. As in, infantry moves to the front side of a wood and thus spots any tanks in the next field. Then AFVs peak around that wood and get LOS to the next treeline farther on, where enemy infantry might be. Then your infantry runs across to that next body of woods, with the AFVs ready to clobber any infantry that tries to stop them. Once inside and it is clear there isn't enemy infantry-AT there, the AFVs come forward. Infantry sneaks to the far side of the second wood. Repeat.

The LOS lines of one force type always preceed the move forward by the other force type - the infantry to spot tanks before they spot you, the AFVs to shoot ambushing infantry. Play the same overwatch and "walking on two legs" game with seperate pairs of AFVs and their platoons, side by side.

When you find enemies, break contact if the initial odds are bad, until you are ready to tackle them with enough. Do not try to fit at negative odds for 3 minutes until help comes up - you will just be broken (infantry) or knocked out (AFVs) by then. Instead pull back, and then have two "teams" hit the same target from two seperated directions - or if you can't manage that, doubled up from one.

Be properly suspicious of any area you haven't reached yet with scouts. Think about the worse places enemy AFVs could pop up, where ATGs would really hurt. Plan for the worst, not risking more than you have to. Sometimes you will have to take risks, but take them with your eyes open knowing they are there - don't blunder into them expecting nothing.

That ridge you haven't been over - could there by 2 M10s behind it? Why not? How bad would that hurt? Do you really need to move in a way that would make it hurt that bad if it happened? That wood on your right you haven't entered yet - what if there is a hidden ATG there? Won't it flank that pair of valuable Panthers if you move any farther forward? Do you really have a target for those Panthers right this instant? Can't they wait? Can't you spare a measily half-squad as well as 3 minutes to go and check?

If you use the infantry-HE heavy idea, you have to fight the armor war on a shoestring, with infantry AT and a few TDs (Hetzers or Jagds, typically). You have to leave the TDs back until you find AFVs blowing up your infantry, and only then hunt forward with single TDs to take out enemy AFVs (or pairs). Then do not hang around staring at things, get out of LOS of everybody completely and reposition that TD someplace else.

If his AFVs come after your limited TDs aggressively, retreat and draw them past your front line schrecks. Use infantry withdrawls to entice enemy vehicles forward trying to re-establish LOS to your infantry, and ambush them when they get close. Use reverse slopes, back sides of woods, positions behind buildings or the second ring inside a village for that.

Keep your own FOs pounding enemy squad infantry - don't waste it on mere MGs, or on guns if you can manage to avoid those instead (or take them out with on-map 81mm mortars). Dodge his own fire missions as soon as you see spotting rounds, and withdraw from direct fire HE. Run the enemy out of squad infantry while keeping your own alive, and he won't be able to dislodge you from the tighter terrain areas of the map.

It is an entirely different strategy, but it can work, especially if the enemy armor force is long in TD ability and short on HE. If he spent the bulk of his points on armor and you spent the bulk of yours on infantry, you will have infantry odds to begin with.

I hope this helps.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

[QB]Armor, meaning Armor setting in the QB. The point breakdown is:

Infantry 2600

Support 1560

Vehicle 1000

Armor 5000

Artillery 1000

Note that it is different for both sides.

You seriously think it is a good idea to hunt tanks with infantry on Large Maps? Especially if he is allies? Allies have really good infantry killing armor.

As I asked for, what month? With panzerfausts-100 and Volksgrenadiers, on a mod-mod (trees, hills) map - yes, every day.

Also, what if it was unrestricted? Would you spend more then half your points on infantry?

I personally wouldn't, but that is because I buy to have fun and I have more fun with vehicles.

But there can be no doubt that a buy-for-win purchase on med-med Quickbattle map will have to have about 50% infantry, plus lots of heavy artillery and some cheap HE shooting vehicles. The CMBO game mechanics and pricing system dictate that.

The only exception is when you play for knockout points only and plan to withdraw from the map after killing enough enemy vehicles. This may seriously offend your opponent.

[Redwolf]

Just did some testing. An infantry heavy selection is not possible in that battle, the 255 units/side limit is blown. Doh!

[OG_Gleep]

This may help redwolf. Unit Qual is set to high.

This is a good friend of mine, so the game is quite causal. I just told him to send me the file. The only reason I know any details at all is because I wanted to answer the questions raised on this board.

Details I know:

Map: Large

Type of Battle: Meeting Engagment

Points: 5000

Units/Service: Unrestricted

Tree Coverage: Moderate

Hills: Moderate

Setting: Rural or Farmland

German Force Selection ALL Vet:

9x Jagpanzer w/skirt

2x Hummel

3x StuH

1x Hertzger

1x Lynx

2x 251/9 75mm HT

1x Puma

2x 105mm Spotter

1x Para Bat.

2x 75mm AT

There I think I added a couple more things just to even out the points, but that covers most of it.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

9x Jagpanzer w/skirt

Jagdpanzers are tough to use. Hetzers are cheaper and do a similar job, IV/70s are more expensive but definately worth it, and Jagdpanthers are even better - with a good rotation and high-velocity gun. All of them are pretty dire against infantry, so keep them protected. I would recommend some vet Jagdpanthers, supported by Ostwinds as your armour fist. Not much the allies can do except run away.

[JasonC]

Nonsense, you won't hit 255 units with a proper German infantry-heavy 5000 point ME force, even with regulars.

Buy a regiment of infantry - you don't need all the extras so buy them as companies, 9 of them. If you use VG add a 4th VG rifle platoon to each company, making 36 small platoons all told in that case.

Add 18 schrecks, and if your infantry type doesn't come with HMGs 6-10 HMGs or so. Buy 3x105mm FO and 1x150mm FO.

Add 3-5 Jagds for AT - or if you want historical StuGs you can take 6-10 of those. As VG, small squads, that only comes to 184 units (with just 3 Jagds).

In a fight where an armor heavy force might be expected to bring one FJ battalion, a whole regiment of infantry definitely qualifies as "infantry heavy".

[OG_Gleep]

Ok, lets assume that the date is early. I don't think that there are pazerfaust-100 yet. I just checked the setup phase and my guys have Panzerfaust-60's.

Tree cover is very heavy, the map is large.

What do you guys suggest in this specific case. One person said IF there are PZ-100's use heavy infantry, there is not though. One person said use tons of Jagdpanzers, and some HE's. Another said JagdPanzers are hard to use, get a few JagdPanthers instead.

Ok, the map is really large. In this specific scenario, what is the best forces, and what should I do with those forces? Ie: Stay on your initial line, and wait for the enemy to come out, sneak forward with infantry then bring up the armor..etc etc etc.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

Ok, lets assume that the date is early. I don't think that there are pazerfaust-100 yet. I just checked the setup phase and my guys have Panzerfaust-60's.

Tree cover is very heavy, the map is large.

The map size is only relevant in relation to the number of turns.

Panzerfaust-60 is good enough on a med/med map for me. I don't like the slow Schrecks on big maps, so that somewhat lowers the desire to go infantry-heavy.

What do you guys suggest in this specific case. One person said IF there are PZ-100's use heavy infantry, there is not though. One person said use tons of Jagdpanzers, and some HE's. Another said JagdPanzers are hard to use, get a few JagdPanthers instead.

Jagdpanzer IV (75mm L/48) is not worth the money compared to the Hetzer.

I don't like the Panzer IV/70 for its slow turn rate and dull TacAI.

The Jagdpanther is awesome, but if you build your force around many of them, you can be nailed with lots of Jacksons.

As long as you don't say a specific month, that's about all that can be said. The availablity of the Jumbo Sherman makes a big difference. And Panzerfaust-60 is not a very early month. How come you don't know the month of a battle you already can look into units?!?

[ August 12, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[OG_Gleep]

My friend set it up, and didn't remember what month he setup. I don't know how to find the date ingame. Only way I know how to be sure of date is in teh setup.

We are starting over and I am going to set up the specs. Since I am going to setup, suggest a date for the battle with some kind of strategy. I don't want an advantage, that's not what I am asking for. I really need help in large scale armor conflicts. I am pretty good at infantry tactics, but I don't know the units well. Especially the armor. I don't have enough experience.

[Zarquon]

I am Germans, the map should be set to Rural, Mod Tree, Mod Hills. Don't know the date or conditions other then its a meeting engagment. What units would you suggest as nessisary? How much points should be spent on each unit type? I have a tendancy to prioritize in terms of firepower. Heavy tanks are more important then Med tanks, Med Tanks are more important then Light tanks, etc etc.

It's having the right tank for the situation, or using each one as it was meant to be used. Take a Tiger or one of the more expensive Jagdpanzers and park it somewhere on the flank of a large hill where it can play out its advantages - a large gun and thick armor. You won't need more than one or two of those cats, but they can do things no one else can do. Don't move into a dogfight situation, where large numbers of fast allied tanks can flank and destroy you. A Sturmhaubitze 42 is a specialist too, for flattening buildings. Don't use it against enemy tanks. You'll buy one or two of those, no more. You get the idea; a few specialists and all the rest on plain, medium tanks like PzIV and StuGIII. If you like, one or two cheap scouts.

I would spend ~2200-2400 pts on infantry (MotInf and/or Volksgrenadiere, you'll want as much plain infantry as you can get, not too many HMGs or mortars). Perhaps buy single companies instead of a batallion. No add. support weapons except 6-8 Schrecks, 2 x 81mm + 2 x 120mm, a few 251/1's and the rest on tanks. Make up teams of 2-3 tanks that work together in the advance - say, a Hetzer (in overwatch) and a PzIV (advancing).

What should be the general plan? Do I keep my forces together? Or do I spread them out? Do I keep my armor still until my infantry spots him? Once Armor is sighted...do I bring all my armor to bear, or just move in one to do the dirty work?

Hard to say. Develop a plan according to the actual map (routes of advance, good positions for your Tiger bunkers etc.). Expect to scrap it after a few turns. Don't rush it. Scout with a platoon or less. If they can reach the target alive, the rest of the company can follow. If they can't, the company can't. It's better to reach good positions on your side of the flags and let him do the rushing - under fire.

P.S. : I love flanking. Put together a small, mobile force (a Puma and a Panther will do) and move them quickly on the map edge right into his back, while everyone else is busy in the map center. If he discovers you, he might send somebody to deal with that. Good. If he doesn't discove ryou, all the better.

[Ron]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

My friend set it up, and didn't remember what month he setup. I don't know how to find the date ingame. Only way I know how to be sure of date is in teh setup.

We are starting over and I am going to set up the specs. Since I am going to setup, suggest a date for the battle with some kind of strategy. I don't want an advantage, that's not what I am asking for. I really need help in large scale armor conflicts. I am pretty good at infantry tactics, but I don't know the units well. Especially the armor. I don't have enough experience.

Take everything I say for what it is worth, not gospel.

What has worked for me is to select a force comprising of about 30-40% Armor, 15-20% artillery, and the rest in Infantry, Support and Vehicles to suit your preferences and circumstances. That will give you a pretty balanced force, assuming mostly Regulars choosen. A more armor or infantry heavy force can work obviously but will also be more difficult to master.

What forces you select aren't too terribly important, experiment, unless your opponent is a confirmed super heavy tank freak in which case you will have to account for that.

For German tanks you could purchase mostly Pz IVs complemented by Tigers/Panthers, with an additional small force of assault guns, JgPzs or Stugs, and do quite well as Axis guns have little problem against most Allied armor. More support can be selected from the Vehicle category in the form of 75mm and 20mm HTs.

For Allied tanks I like to focus on speed first to gain flanking positions as their guns do have trouble against a lot of the German armor. If British I would go the Cromwell and Firefly/Challenger route, with Stuarts and MMG Carriers for recce and support. For the US, mostly stock Shermans, a couple 105mm Shermans maybe, and then 76mm Shermans and/or Hellcats/Jacksons to do the TD work. Rounded out by Stuarts, M8 HMCs and HTs for recce and support. Try out different combinations and work with them.

You will need a combined arms force to 'get the job done'. Not enough infantry and your armor will suffer, not enough armor or AT ability and your infantry will suffer etc etc. Your artillery can smash up your opponent's assembly areas and soften positions for your infantry. Sure there are German infantry types that can do it alone but the attack is easier and more sustainable with artillery.

The number one key for armor engagements is spot your opponents and try not to reveal yours until you can strike a telling blow. Do so with enough committed then move and repeat. There was a thread awhile back about being successful with armor which had a few good points later on.

Defending or Attacking

If you are having trouble initially trying to grasp a large battle then try breaking up the map into thirds, left - center - right. Look at the map and try to imagine different possibilities and what you would need to do, need to commit to make it happen, and place your forces accordingly, with the ultimate goal of destroying the enemy in mind. Keep your forces in depth then commit them as the situation warrants, either because your opponent is threatening a breakthrough or you have created one with your forward elements or you have found a weak spot. Try to engage armor with superior numbers and from preferably at least two or more positions, both tied to spotting his armor first and knowing the map. Even better if infantry and AT guns are involved also. Be patient and flexible. Coordinate your forces and moves/attacks. Get a feel for what your opponent is doing and upset him...

As for knowing the units, well that is what the editor is for. As for experience that's solved with play - try different force combinations and see what works and what doesn't and when and why, see what your opponent does, play different people and see what they do etc. Play, have fun and most importantly destroy your opponent(!)

Ron

[JasonC]

Heavy woods strongly favors an infantry heavy force type. I'd take a regiment of infantry in that situation - 2 battalions at a minimum (meaning 6-9 companies - you needn't actually buy the battalion level with the extra heavy weapons and light FOs) - with 3-4 large caliber FOs (105mm or better).

As for Jagdpanzers, I strongly disagree with the folks saying they are "hard to use" or that "Jagdpanthers are better" or that "they aren't worth the cost compared to Hetzers". Its all rot. Jagdpanzers work fine - the plain 75L48 type with skirts, 120 points as regulars.

Compared to Hetzers, you get ~30 HE rounds each, which is enough to actually hurt enemy infantry. Which Hetzers are very bad at. The sides are paper thin either, you get full ROF, and you can carry infantry heavy weapons (like HMGs) around on their backs. None of which Hetzers can do. Hetzers are fine for pure AT work, particularly on defense, but are too limited in other respects to act as a main battle AFV.

Meanwhile Jagdpanthers cost as much as Panthers and more than Tiger Is. The whole point of taking Jagds instead is that the cost per AFV is comparable to their allied counterparts, while the armor is better and the gun is no worse. They are quite effective when used properly, being hard to hit, well protected in front, dangerous to everything but Jumbos and thick Churchills - essentially everything needed and nothing extra in a main battle AFV.

In dense woods you should not need that many of them, even on a large map. Take plenty of schrecks - 12-18, more if you like. If the infantry type you pick comes with on-map mortars, you might want some SPWs to help cart them around (they don't fit on AFVs), which you can buy via armored Pz Gdr platoons if you like. Anything extra, buy a few DF HE chuckers or additional big FOs.

The dividing line date-wise is November. Before then VG pattern infantry is not available, from November on it is. The infantry side of the force would look different if you chose to use the VG pattern. You also have to decide whether to use Pz Gdrs or not; they are realistic for an armor heavy force but less so for an infantry heavy force.

An example, using plain Rifle 44 infantry -

8 Rifle Company (included 16 HMG - ride the AFVs)

8 Jagdpanzer w/ Skirt

2 StuH

3 105 FO

1 150 FO

16 Schreck

Or, with Heer Pz Gdrs -

4 Mot. Pz Gdr Company

+3 Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

+1 Arm. Pz Gdr Platoon

8 Jagdpanzer w/ Skirt

4 StuH

3 105 FO (or 120)

1 150 FO

11 Schreck (or 13)

Tasking - SPWs carried 2x81mm each, HMGs ride the AFVs.

Or, if VG is available -

6 VG Company

+6 VG Rifle platoon

2 Heavy Wpns Company (not "VG")

(thus, 2x120 FO, 2x81 FO, 12xHMG, HQs)

12 Schreck

8 Jagdpanzer w/ Skirt

4 StuH

2 150mm FO

Overall, you wind up taking 16-24 infantry platoons and 10-12 AFVs. The Pz Gdrs are lower in infantry numbers but more heavily armed (2 LMG squads, 81mm mortars, a few SPWs).

Nothing razzle dazzle, just solid unit types and plenty of them. It will be hard for them to stop all that infantry, and the Jagds should have good hunting if he tries to use vanilla tanks or HE throwers to help do so. If his armor is all TDs, they won't stop the infantry.

[M&M&M]

In dense woods, buy some Fusillier SMG squads. Best some veteran ones, they have extreme firepower in the short range. In dense woods you probably are going to fight infantry in short ranges because of the line of sight.

Good luck.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Jagdpanzer IV (75mm L/48) is not worth the money compared to the Hetzer.

I don't like the Panzer IV/70 for its slow turn rate and dull TacAI.

In my opinion the IV/70 is a great choice for Gleep. Sure it is not so good against excellent players who use infantry well and buy M8s, but for players struggling with armour tactics against an average opponent they are sweet. Smallish, with an extremely accurate gun and excellent armour slope, they will bounce 76mm t rounds from the front when positioned correctly. They are robust enough so that your timing and tactics don't have to be *perfect* for them to pay off.

However if your timing and tactics are perfect, they may not be the best tank to use, because they tend to spend a bit of time rotating between targets, like a stug III. So narrow fire lanes are needed. They have a faster turn rate than hetzers though.

Also my original recommendation still stands, the jagdpanther. And again, both these deadly TDs need support (ostwind or PIV).

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Its all rot

The improvements in the gun and armour of the IV/70 over the jagdpanzer in my opinion are more then worth the 30 points.

The IV/70 is more robust - it will last longer and penetrate more armour, and in less shots, and over a greater distance than the jagdpanzer. And this makes it a great tank for someone struggling a bit with tank tactics.

Still, it is interesting that people who study the figures disagree on things like this. Shows what a well balanced game CM is.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Compared to Hetzers, you get ~30 HE rounds each, which is enough to actually hurt enemy infantry. Which Hetzers are very bad at. The sides are paper thin either, you get full ROF, and you can carry infantry heavy weapons (like HMGs) around on their backs. None of which Hetzers can do. Hetzers are fine for pure AT work, particularly on defense, but are too limited in other respects to act as a main battle AFV.

"Because those extras are nice if you are alive but no help if you aren't, and winning or losing the armor war and thus being alive to use them or not, depends mostly on armor strength, raw number of vehicles and thus low cost, and gun power to defeat enemy front armor."

You said both of these things Jason, and I tend to agree with your opinion last week

[OG_Gleep]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

Still, it is interesting that people who study the figures disagree on things like this. Shows what a well balanced game CM is.

Speaking of studying figures, has anyone published a FAQ, or any kind of research regarding the numbers and/or units?

[OG_Gleep]

Specifically talking about VG's and infantry..... What is the difference between the Fulliser and reg VG in terms of gameplay(not numbers, but what they translate on the battlefield)? Why take them instead of FJ's, which I believe have more firepower. VG SMG firepower is 279 I believe, while FJ's are 324 with 2 extra men. Also why not take Sturmguppe instead of either? Is it cost?

And thank you everyone that posted. This has helped clear a few things up. I just started playing PBEM's at the same time I started playing QB's. In my first large scale battle vs a human opponent I got knocked around pretty bad using poort tactics and selecting a 3rd rate force.

This has helped a great deal. Now I just need the experience and some refined tactics and I should be set. Any body want to play a large battle using these settings? =)

[ August 13, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tecumseh:

Still, it is interesting that people who study the figures disagree on things like this. Shows what a well balanced game CM is.

Speaking of studying figures, has anyone published a FAQ, or any kind of research regarding the numbers and/or units?</font>

[Ron]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

Specifically talking about VG's and infantry..... What is the difference between the Fulliser and reg VG in terms of gameplay(not numbers, but what they translate on the battlefield)? Why take them instead of FJ's, which I believe have more firepower. VG SMG firepower is 279 I believe, while FJ's are 324 with 2 extra men. Also why not take Sturmguppe instead of either? Is it cost?

And thank you everyone that posted. This has helped clear a few things up. I just started playing PBEM's at the same time I started playing QB's. In my first large scale battle vs a human opponent I got knocked around pretty bad using poort tactics and selecting a 3rd rate force.

This has helped a great deal. Now I just need the experience and some refined tactics and I should be set. Any body want to play a large battle using these settings? =)

Simply a thought but if you are just beginning then perhaps a smaller scale may be easier to manage at first to learn some basics.

To answer your question, both the Fusilier and VG platoons are SMG heavy so can be very deadly in the sub 40m range, less effective at longer range ie greater than 100m. The VG Heavy SMG squad can provide long range suppresive fire with its 2 LMGs. The Sturmgruppe company looks impressive at first but because of CM's method of allocating casualties those big 13 man squads will be whittled down before you know it.

Re some comments above, when HD both the Hetzer and JgPzIV/70 are pretty much immune frontally to 76mm tungsten from all ranges. To take them out you will have to do so from the flank. As mentioned they are perfect on the defense but a poor choice otherwise, having slow speed and ROF, and low amounts of ammo, MG and HE, they aren't very well suited for the attack. Not sure if they are a good choice either to learn armor tactics initially.

If you are still looking for a game fire me a setup, any side, map, size etc will do.

Ron

[JasonC]

Um, tecu, if you are going to quote me at least get the subject matter and context right. I was talking about Shermans when I spoke of overpaying for extras that aren't any use in the armor war. Jagdpanzers aren't Shermans.

They don't overpay for 3 MGs, hundreds of MG ammo, 65 HE, a turret, a fast turret, gyros, or 32 mph road speed. But the difference between 30 HE and 10 (for a Hetzer) is not a largely irrelevant extra - which all of those are when you lose the armor war - but the difference between being able to influence the infantry-HE battle with your AFVs and not being able to.

Jagds buy the essentials - front armor that bounces most enemy rounds, a gun that kills almost all enemy tanks, and enough HE to break infantry with direct fire.

As for another's comments about the Jagd-70, there is nothing seriously wrong with it but in most QBs the gun is overkill. There are few Allied AFVs that the plain 75L48 on the ordinary Jagd won't kill. If you want to KO W Shermans at 1 km and upward, sure it is better to have the L70 than to need a turret hit. But such ranges are rare in QBs, even large QBs. W Sherman aren't terribly cost effective for the Allies. And you can still kill them with turret hits at long range even without the L70.

Worth having 2 fewer Jagds? Not alone. The Jagd-70 front armor is somewhat better too, that is true. But lower hull hits (along with sides) still kill them, and ordinary Jagds still bounce most Allied AT weapons. Again, only a marginal difference.

Whereas not using StuGs or Pz IVs is not a marginal difference, but a night and day difference - most things kill those from the front, and most things don't kill Jagds from the front. It makes sense to pay for that front armor - and they only cost as much as Pz IVs (for extras like turret, MG ammo, etc). If you are going to spend 150-198 per AFV then just take Tiger Is or Panthers. But you will wind up outnumbered in AFVs. Which you needn't be with plain Jagds.

As for infantry types, FJ are not an "uber" infantry type because they spend lots of points on irrelevant extras like 81mm FOs. Sturmgruppe squads are too large for most purposes unless you split them, and somewhat fragile due to 1/2 squad morale if you do. What do I mean by "too large"? I mean if 2 men are hit and the rest panic, 11 men panic instead of 6-7. It is easier to suppress a few targets than a lot of targets.

The VG squads are on the small side, with only 8 men. They are however much cheaper per platoon, so you get more platoons, usually about 4 to 3. And the SMG firepower is awesome in close. The other strong German infantry type is the Motorized Pz Gdr, with 10 man squads each with 2 LMGs. The SS version also has an extra MP44 per squad, giving 4 close range automatics on top of the 2 LMGs. 10 men is enough to not be too brittle, the first men hit tend to be rifles, and you can buy them without a lot of extras.

Compared to those two types (VG, Mot. Pz Gdr) the others aren't as good. But the Rifle 44 (or Security) "vanilla" infantry types are more realistic for most formations and most of the war. Real men don't need 2 LMG or all SMG German infantry to win. If you never take anything but uber infantry or SMG hordes, you will just PO your opponent. It is gamey. Take them sometimes - when you are depicting Panzer division formations use Pz Gdrs, a counterattack reserve use VG - but not always.

P.S. as for what the VG Fusiliers represent in reality, some divisions had one battalion of recon infantry, often bicycle mounted. They were used as scouts, to patrol thin sectors, and as a reaction reserve to plug holes or put in counterattacks. That is what the VG Fusilier infantry type represents - that one battalion per VG infantry division (though actually, not all had them).

In CM, the VG Fusiliers have 3 different squad types, pure SMG, Fusilier which is mostly SMG, and Rifle 44. If you add one VG Fusilier platoon to a company, you get 4 of each squad type. You can mix the assignments by using the company HQ to lead a 5th "mini-platoon". Add some schrecks with the forward SMGs and some HMGs with the rear Rifle 44 squad types, along with the sharpshooters, as ranged "overwatch" fire. It isn't the best infantry type, but it has a little of many kinds and can teach you stuff about what each type can do.

[ August 13, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]