Citadel as Russians - were to put the ATGs?

[Cameroon]

Ok, I've played this one I don't know how many times now. FINALLY I got a minor victory tonight, but other than that the best I manage is a draw because the AI lingers at places where it meets resistance [Heh, I had two vet PTRDs pegging one PanzerIV from behind all the way from the first set of trees. On their last combined shot (yes, 150 rounds) they forced the crew to abandon. It was useful though, the continued resistance kept the AI slow to move forward].

Anyway, I can't figure out where to place the ATGs. Everywhere I put them seems to be bad. I'd really appreciate some pointers including how to set up the covered arcs for best affect.

This is with EFOW btw.

[tecumseh]

I got an easy win placing a line of ATGs at the rear of the woods around the first flag, all pointing across the map, for flank shots. I also got 5 tanks with infantry, and that was that.

Playing as axis, the AI placed it's guns along the foward slope behind the field, and in various other places along the rear of the map. They were devastating there, coz I couldn't spot them to return fire. I rushed a Pz III along the road to contest the crossroads flag on turn 45, and I could just hear this continous ATG fire and it got hit about 30 times. But I crawled the crew to the flag and won it! Gamey bastard

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

I got an easy win placing a line of ATGs at the rear of the woods around the first flag, all pointing across the map, for flank shots. I also got 5 tanks with infantry, and that was that.

Thats what I did, and had guns at the first crossroads. That way, when they turned to engage the woods guns, the crossroads guns had perfect shots at the suckers. Previous to that ambush, no shots fired. After three turns of the ambush, all German AFV's knocked out or abandoned. Worked like a charm.

Chad

[Wicky]

I used the Rusky HQ unit with binocs in a forward section of trees to ID the HQ tanks - takes a turn or three) and prioritised the ATG (vets positioned on the flanks, basically lower experience in depth) to take them out . This meant keeping ATGs hidden and letting the 'herd' of panzers pass by until the HQ tanks presented themselves. Once the HQs are taken out the rest become prone to routing, panicking and only able to act in self defence. KVs went in to round up the rest . Tested with a 200% bonus to axis AI in xtreme FOW.

[Cameroon]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I ended up putting a 2 ATGs and 2 ATRs on the reverse side of the small, right-hand-side hill right near the Axis setup and facing them to get rear shots on the tanks. This worked well, for one ATG taken out the Axis lost 5 tanks and refused to go near that flank any longer.

I think I finally figured out where to place my ATGs near the first flag in the woods. I managed to cause quite a bit of havok, but not nearly as much as I would have liked. More experimentation required

In the end, I did manage a total victory due largely to the rather lucky performance of my extreme forward AT element. I guess losing 1/3 of your force at the start might have an impact

Wicky, how many panzers did your KVs handle? If I'm lucky my KVs get one or two tanks and maybe live. If I'm unluck, my KVs die (and a number of times burning, no less). In my victory, I was lucky. They took out two tanks and lived (though one was immobilized).

[Gpig]

What an awesome game! I love it.

Citadel: I've played it twice as the Russians and won twice. Once as a Tactical victory and the 2nd time as a TOTAL victory. (These were both vs the A.I. of course.)

The first time I set up pretty much like in the default positions and just whittled 'em down as they came. But I hid my KV's in that "sink-hole" on the right hand side of the map, just in front and left of the rocky ridge. They waited till the horde of Panzers trundled on past. Then emerged into their rear (ick) and laid a licking on them. (Double ick)

One of my KV's knocked out 4 III's and 2 of the IV's. It was AWESOME!!!

The second time I threw all my assets up front and unleashed hell all within a couple of minutes. Total victory and I still had 5 AT guns that survived and both KV's.

Only 2 of the Panzers managed to pass my set-up zone line.

I just LOVE this game!!!

Gpig

[Mud]

Here's another data point. First try as the Russians (after having eventualy beaten it as the Germans, after figuring out that maybe I should steer clear of the woods instead of trying to clear 'em).

I placed a battery of 6 of the 45mms back and to the right of the front hill, with a fairly narrow LOS to enemy territories.

Three of the 45mms I put in front side of the woods by the first flag, but on hide orders -- I planned to start them when the panzers were looking at the 6-gun battery, or vice versa. These guys got the HQ.

Three I put a bit further back than that, with an across-the-map view only, just in case things went really FUBAR or the AI went crazy and sped forward.

The two KV-1Ss, I put behind the front/right hill covering a narrow front view, but otherwise not exposed.

The infantry assets were fairly scattered; the only one that really made a difference was probably an ATR that I'd put in a far forward position in woods, but on the rear side and with a cover-arc aimed towards my own positions. This guy basically was set to plink the panzers from the rear. I also had some assets in the bowl closest to the enemy, to distract them and get some shots at 60-80m.

End result --

Of the 6-AT gun battery, four were destroyed fairly quickly after only immobilizing a PzIII. The remaining two, however, accounted for a few kills and kept plinking throughout the battle.

The 3 in the forward half of the forest got a few kills, without sustaining any losses or possibly without any significant return fire at all. Perhaps they weren't spotted for sure.

The KV-1Ss sustained one casualty (exactly one penetrating hit during the battle) and got the rest of the panzers, after popping out while the panzers were taking fire from the front (the woods), the front/flank (the two survivors of the gully battery), and the rear (the plucky ATR behind them). During all this fire, the panzers were basically stationary (some were known to be immobilized, the others perhaps confused).

End result was something like 89-11, FWIW after the German forces finished losing their tanks and surrendered.

Were I to replay, I'd have ignored the clump of woods smack in front of the enemy center as a probable death trap (it was), and put another ATR at least with the force meant to smack them from the rear -- or maybe even a 45mm or two, with tank hunters to protect them. I'd probably reduce the forces in the gully, as well.

[Shosties]

I put three ATGs of higher experience in the back of the front-left objective woods for flank and rear shots, the rest in an arc from the scattered trees in front of the wheatfield to the stands on the slope of the mesa to the right.

ATRs I put in the little rough patches by that wood, and in the rearmost of the bigger rough patches on the right side. That right hand patch got two Maxims. The remaining Maxims and the tank hunting teams took up in the woods with the ATGs.

The KVs were on the extreme right, a goof on my part put them in LOS of a rise deep in the German end of the map.

I was amazed by the "Keystone Cops" handling of the German armor by the AI. Two Pz III's must have bogged down way back there. I moved my KVs turret down after some Pz III's took pot shots at them at extreme range (got hits too, ricochets, but impressive all the same).

So they came on eventually in this tight snotball with them getting in each other's way and all and I'm just kind of scratching my head. They turn towards the woods and sight two of the ATRs in the rough patches nearby and blow them to smithereens in seconds. The glob then heads off towards the small slope road flag, with the exception of one Pz III making directly for the three ATGs, and I am presented with the ass-on view of twleve tanks. Everybody has been hiding with tiny cover arcs up till now. Well that did it, I have many juicy targets and the prospect that the forward-placed ATGs will be spotted any moment, so I have those three open up.

Unfortunately, only the Pz III headed towards the woods and one Pz IV get knocked out before those three ATGs are blown away.

That done, the main mass of enemy panzers just sits there, with the exception of a lone Pz IV which continues on to the small road slope flag. I have one ATG on my extreme left in front of the field engage the Pz IV and it brews spectacularly on the third or fourth shot without even a reply.

Eventually the snot ball comes up to the lip of the slope and a general melee starts, and I bring the KVs out of hiding. One Pz IV and two Pz IIIs back out of the engagement intact. Five of my remaining ATGs have been taken out as well as the two KVs. Time runs out. IIRC 66-34 tactical victory for me.

I'm not sure those three ATGs I put in the woods really paid off. I could have gambled that the Pz III would have not spotted them and held back until they clanked towards the lip. I'm not happy having only one Pz III to the KVs' credit either.

I'm dissapointed that I got this score against what looked to me like a really clumsy AI.

Comments?

[Shosties]

Had another go at Citadel as Sov this evening. Went somewhat better in terms of final score.

Remember: light guns can be manhandled.

I leave the implications to your imagination.

[Incognito]

No don't laught but winning as ruskies was easy for me but this scen is killing me as germies :confused:

[Slappy]

I was humbled by the AI in my first outing. I tried to use my tanks like infantry (i.e. scouting the trees, one AFV up front to spot trouble, etc.) and was picked off one by one as a result.

My advice is keep everyone together. Keep your platoons in nice bunches and use travelling overwatch. The key to citadel for both sides is to create 4 on 1 or better situations. Also, the only real threats in citadel are the guns. You may lose one tank to a ATR, but the Maxim's are useless, the tank hunters are only a threat in the trees, and the KVs are a joke if you gang tackle them.

[109 Gustav]

I recommend using one platoon of pz. IIIs to lead the attack. They actually have thicker armor than the IVs, so they make better breakthrough tanks. Use the rest of the IIIs to screen the sides of your formation, and have the IVs just behind them providing overwatch. Go slow; you have plenty of time and hurrying things won't help. At the start of the game you can use a little smoke to block the KVs until you can get closer to them. Thanks to the spaced armor, your pz IIIs are hard for the KVs to kill, so use as many of them as possible to tank rush the KVs. (you gamey weasel)