wbs Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 I recently played a scenario (Skull Island)where I had a problem with "Gun Damage" hits. It was the first time that I had played a scenario that involved prolonged combat between tanks and 20mm field guns (or flak guns). Because of the topological circumstances, combat necessarily took place at 500-800 meter ranges. I sent a Sherman up to take on the 20mm gun, since a 20mm gun can't penetrate the frontal armor of a Sherman. It should have been a slam dunk. The result: "track hit", and "Gun Damage" (over 2 turns) and thus a dead tank. Thinking it was a fluke I did it again, with the same result. I then upped the ante, and simultaneously sent a priest (with it's bigger gun) and an M8 Greyhound (to provide a distraction), and over the next five turns the forces went toe to toe. Result: the Greyhound was "Immobilized" and received a "Gun Damage" hit, While the Priest received a "track hit" and "gun Damage" hit. Both were abandoned. This was getting personal. I sent up another sherman, only to receive another "Gun Damage" hit. At that point I switched to artillery and killed the gun. Is it my imagination or is the incidence of gun hits seem to be too high? On what basis was the percentage of "gun hits" based when the game was created? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catacol Highlander Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 the 20mm Quad gun is lethal for such hits. So is the allied bofors. They both seem too lethal for damaging tanks to me, but then again I never drove a tank at one before... It is the way the game plays - just got ot adapt to it. Cheers Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 This has been discussed at length in the last three months, and the consensus seems to be that the effectiveness of the light Flak guns against armor is over-modeled. I too have noticed an awful lot of gun hits as well, much more than I have read about in the historical record. I don't know, maybe it just wasn't something people wrote about... I might also add that sending single tanks against any threat is bad tactics. It is pounded into nearly every book on the subject that they are most effective when used en masse. In CM that means at least in pairs. Platoons are even better. Michael [ July 20, 2002, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Originally posted by wbs: I recently played a scenario (Skull Island)where I had a problem with "Gun Damage" hits.wbs, not to get on your case, but I'd just like to say this before this moves into full-swing: This is probably the third or so discussion I've seen on this issue, and I even think this is a question that bears looking at, but before everyone piles on again stating their opinion yet again, and the same fragmented info and thoughts on this, and before all the new people rush in to say 'yeah, what's that all about', and other people call those people a bunch of bloody idjits, could someone please post a link to some of the original threads on 'gun hits' for wbs. On the other hand, if you have new and relevant info to bring forward on this issue, then do so. But I envision that the fourth, or maybe only third, rehashing of the same info and opinions will most likely result in the usual gang of people saying one thing, and the other gang of people saying the other thing, and the relevant bits will get lost, as they almost always do, in the strident braying of voices trumpeting 'Overmodeled', and the equally discordant shrieking of 'Where's Your Proof!', and people calling each other all sorts of perfectly true and applicable names. I'm an old man, and I need my rest in anticipation of CMBB, and the brouhaha that results from one of these discussions of a feature in a year old game that will not, for the foreseeable future, undergo any modification, is putting me off both rest and food. Worse, the resultant reiteration of every opinion, thought, half imagined concept, half remembered fact, completely made-up gibberish, personal hatred, 'BFC got this ****e horribly wrong', 'BFC can do no wrong', I once saw a tank in a movie, I once read a book about tanks, and finally, I want everyone to read, yet again, the thing I previously said about this in the first, second, third, ad infinitum iteration of this thread, is causing me to question the very utility of BEER. Suppose Jesus returned to earth tomorrow. And suppose he brought beer. Really, really great beer, like Keystone! Would he have to listen to the barfight that resulted from another discussion of the modeling of 'gun hits'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 I've got to agree with Seanachai as much as I hate to. I think he's the one that criticized my use of exclamation points back in another thread but that's another story. But anyway, I too read the mentioned posts and while not commenting then I now know the true poop. I got it from a friend of mine that heard it from a Uncle of his that read it from a book one time - oh never mind. Oh hell, if you want to talk about it go ahead and talk about it I say. Seanachai will just have to go without sleep. No big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Originally posted by lcm1947: I've got to agree with Seanachai as much as I hate to. I think he's the one that criticized my use of exclamation points back in another thread but that's another story....Seanachai will just have to go without sleep. No big deal. I loved your use of exclamation points. I remember leaning over to Angelina Jolie and saying "Don't you think that's the finest use of exclamation points you've seen since the Mad Bald one began posting like some sort of psycho-killer of the English language?", and she responded "This lcm1947 intrigues me. Do you think he thinks I'm hot?", and I said "Of course he does, but what about me?", and she replied "You're a short, paunchy opinionated Gnome, but we'll always have Paris", and I replied "I've never been to Paris", and then she called her security people when she realized we'd been inadvertantly seated together at the Celebrity Rally For the Release of CMBB. Everyone was extremely courteous, of course, and after pressing charges for impersonating a member of BFC Angelina did, actually, recognize my screen name, and asked me if I could get her a date with Steve Grammont, and I lied shamelessly and said I could, and she told me that MrPeng was actually her favourite on the Peng Challenge Thread, and then she asked me to get her another wine cooler, and I realized that one could never fall in love with a woman who actually drank wine coolers, and then I began to wonder why I was telling all this to that useless little sod lcm1947 when I turned down several highly paid interviews with the tabloids who were absolutely begging for my story. And then I strolled back on over to the Peng Challenge Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Not sure what all that above is about but in CMBB the % of gun hits resulting in a "Gun Damage" result has been lowered. We discussed this internally and looked at a lot of data and decided this would be a more fair approximation since we don't model partial damage which could be quickly resolved. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Dammit Seanachai, every time we get a rollicking FLAK-attack thread going on ,you have to jump in with your dreary old Angelina Jolie (boldened because she IS hot) story. Why not just refer them to the 2-3 threads where you drone on about brushing your elbows with her. For christ's sake, this iteration, it even sounded like you were in bed with her through the first paragraph! Enuff-z-nuff (great band BTW) Oh, and FYI, the game has been out for TWO years now. Jeez... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Originally posted by Madmatt: Not sure what all that above is about but in CMBB the % of gun hits resulting in a "Gun Damage" result has been lowered. We discussed this internally and looked at a lot of data and decided this would be a more fair approximation since we don't model partial damage which could be quickly resolved. MadmattOh for godssake, Madmatt, most of what went on above was pure Peng Challenge Thread leakage combined with a very real need to not see another 150 post thread on 'gun hits modeled improperly'. You never stop by anymore, you don't write, and when you do come by, you're always enforcing the rules. Don't you think we miss you? Don't you think we remember the times when you were just a good and decent member of the Forum doing your best, and you were attacked, vilified, and treated like ****e by a bunch of waterheads for no good reason at all? Don't you remember who welcomed your punch-drunk, battered self in, offered you a beer, and told you that you'd always be one of us? It was the Peng Challenge Thread! All we've ever asked in return is that you show up occasionally, and tell us all we're a useless waste of bandwidth. But do you come to dinner? Do you write? No! Your elevation to Moderator has made you proud, lad. You've forgotten the little people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 I don't see much of a problem... - Autocannons in CM fire bursts (of four rounds each, if I'm not mistaken). - They have a fairly good chance to hit a target (tank). - They fire bursts very often. - The small calibre rounds have little or no chance to penetrate tank armour. All this lumped together result in several non penetrating hits. The percentage of total hits on a tank that hit the gun is the same for all firing guns. Larger calibre guns generally stop shooting after the first few hits, because then the target (or firer) has been knocked out. Autocannons often score dozens of hits with little effect, sooner or later there will be a hit on the gun. (Anyone noticed that "Gun Damaged" is a pretty common result of ATGs shooting at JTs too?) Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulletproofest Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 You never stop by anymore, you don't write, and when you do come by, you're always enforcing the rules. Don't you think we miss you? Don't you think we remember the times when you were just a good and decent member of the forum doing your best, and you were attacked, vilified, and treated like ****e by a bunch of waterheads for no reason at all? .........right... [ July 23, 2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: bulletproofest ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Before Seanachai jumps in and start telling us stories how he rub shoulders with Kim Bessinger a couple decades ago I should refer everyone interested in flak gun modeling to redwolf post on www.thforums.com/CMBO in tactics section. The bottom line is that it is not the rate of fire that makes the flak gun dangerous but their accuracy which is insanly high. [ July 23, 2002, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Larsen ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 wbs, Larsen makes an excellent point, and I would argue that not only is the accuracy a product of high velocities intended to minimize time of flight to a moving, sometimes jinking aerial target, but also because flak guns, especially German ones, are so intimately associated with optical rangefinders. I believe that CMBO already factors in their presence. Photographic and film evidence of their frequent use is massive. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 spoiler alert....... I'm playing the scneario which introduces Jagdtigers - I forget the name - Debut of the Jagdtigers" or summit like that.....anyway...as the Germans you get a few 20mm singles. Now these guys were bouncing shots off the front of a few Jackson's from about 6 seconds into the game for 2 moves and never achieved a damned thing!! BTS please fix my game or do sumfink - my 20mm's aren't as good as anyone elses!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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