Found Maps for scenario designers and JasonC I have a ?

[Michael Dorosh]

One of the sergeants in my Regiment was giving away books today, he had some packets of maps, still sealed in plastic, that I guess came with a set of US Army histories of WW II. JasonC, do you know if this would be the "green books" you keep talking about? I think my junior high actually had a set of those green books, but I haven't had a chance to check the university library yet.

Some of them are operational, but there are some great tactical ones, apparently copied from wartime maps, including contour lines, some are small enough to show individual buildings, and they cover Normandy to VE Day, and also some Italian campaign maps.

The packages are marked US PRINTING OFFICE, and they seem to correspond to book titles.

A PORTFOLIO OF MAPS EXTRACTED FROM CASSINO TO THE ALPS

A PORTFOLIO OF MAPS EXTRACTED FROM CROSS-CHANNEL ATTACK

A PORTFOLIO OF MAPS EXTRACTED FROM THE LORRAINE CAMPAIGN

Do these correspond to the titles of the "official" US Army history - or has there been more than one official history?

I will offer scans of some of these maps to scenario designers - I will see first if I can do decent scans, then I will pick out the ones suited to a CM scale battle. I have little interest in US Army stuff, but hopefully someone will find a use for them. There are a lot of corps and divisional maps, but some portray regiment/battalion actions - they are best used in concert with the books themselves, so it may be useless for me to offer them - if you already have the book, the maps are included.

My fee will be one PBEM match for each map I scan for you; does that sound fair? If anyone is interested, email me. My turnaround time is horribly slow so don't expect miracles!

Anything else anyone can tell me about these maps will be greatly appreciated.

[JonS]

Yes, they are from the Green Books

The Green Books, by theatre

Cross Channel Attack

"Cassino to the Alps" and "The Lorraine Campaign" don't seem to be online.

Nice find and save Mike.

Regards

JonS

[Michael Dorosh]

Not sure these scans would be that great, actually, but I would be willing to laser copy. This is an average quality map, some have better contour lines, etc.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Yes, they are from the Green Books

The Green Books, by theatre

Cross Channel Attack

"Cassino to the Alps" and "The Lorraine Campaign" don't seem to be online.

Nice find and save Mike.

Regards

JonS

Are the maps already online? Thanks for the info Jon, that was fast!

[JonS]

hehe - I recognised the titles

In general, no the maps and photos aren't online. Although, I did come across a copy of "Small Unit Actions" that had the maps and photos. Although, that wasn't strictly part of the Green Book series, rather the American Forces in Action series

As a whole, its a very impressive collection.

Edit: IMHO, that quality of scan looks fine

[ April 11, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Do these correspond to the titles of the "official" US Army history...?

Yep. I have a reprinted copy of Cross Channel Attack, but it came without the map packet, only has the maps printed on the inside pages, although the text has references to the packet maps.

...they are best used in concert with the books themselves, so it may be useless for me to offer them - if you already have the book, the maps are included.

Not so, as indicated above. Who would you like to have snuffed?

Michael

[Maj. Battaglia]

These maps (from the "Green Books") were also republished as a package by the National Historical Society in 1995 to be an easier way to use the maps with the Green Books. The book is quite large, so I imagine the maps are original size. I got my copy for about $9.00 at Powell's in Portland, OR.

Title: U.S. Army in World War II Atlas: The European Theater

I have not checked to see if they have Med/Pacific. I hope so.

The maps are quite interesting, and some, such as the one Michael scanned, are useful for scenario design (five-foot contour intervals in that one, compared to 8 feet differences in CM). I don't have access to a scanner, though--sorry.

Some of these maps (and others) are on-line currently. The USMA has some (Ardennes, D-Day), as well as University of Texas Library (Pacific, Dragoon). I've also found maps for the Sicily invasion. But they are all over the place. Mostly these were the operational maps, however.

[Guest Panzer Boxb]

Wow! Nice map. And look at all those pillboxes!!! :eek:

[Frenchy]

Originally posted by Maj. Battaglia:

These maps (from the "Green Books") were also republished as a package by the National Historical Society in 1995 to be an easier way to use the maps with the Green Books. The book is quite large, so I imagine the maps are original size. I got my copy for about $9.00 at Powell's in Portland, OR.

Title: U.S. Army in World War II Atlas: The European Theater

I have not checked to see if they have Med/Pacific. I hope so.

The maps are quite interesting, and some, such as the one Michael scanned, are useful for scenario design (five-foot contour intervals in that one, compared to 8 feet differences in CM). I don't have access to a scanner, though--sorry.

Some of these maps (and others) are on-line currently. The USMA has some (Ardennes, D-Day), as well as University of Texas Library (Pacific, Dragoon). I've also found maps for the Sicily invasion. But they are all over the place. Mostly these were the operational maps, however.

A book of maps is available for the Pacific Theater. I have the same collection from the National Historical Society. Still looking to complete the collection for Med and CBI Theaters.

[SuperSulo]

and look at all that barbed wire! How could the germans afford any troops after buying all that wire...

[Brian]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

and look at all that barbed wire! How could the germans afford any troops after buying all that wire...

Perhaps that was their problem? Relying on a linear rather than a flexible defence?

In reality, obviously, wire and "pillboxes" are much easier and cheaper to install than CMBO would have it. I suspect also that the "pillboxes" on the map aren't necessarily the same as the "pillboxes" in the game.

[Michael Emrys]

I also have the volume on Operation Torch, this one complete with maps. I too will attest to their excellence. Included with this group was an unexpected bonus: a National Geographic Society map of Europe and the Med dated 1939,

Michael

[Brian]

Originally posted by Frenchy:

A book of maps is available for the Pacific Theater. I have the same collection from the National Historical Society. Still looking to complete the collection for Med and CBI Theaters.

Do they have a website? Where did you get you atlas on the Pacific Theatre? Did it include any information on the SW Pacific Theatre or was it exclusively the central pacific?

[Maj. Battaglia]

Brian-

You are from Australia, right? I was searching for these atlases the other day to see if there were Med/N. Af. editions. I did not find them or a site for National Historical Society. But I did find that a bookstore in Australia has the Pacific Atlas in stock:

Pacific Book House, Gold Coast, QLD, Australia

I was searching on Abebooks.com , a good source for finding used, rare, and out-of-print books. Pacific Book House may have their own web site, I did not look, however (despite being up here in Jakarta).

[JasonC]

Yep, those are the green books alright. The maps are great, some more detailed than others to be sure, but all useful. Most are from the pre-war French survey, and were the ones the US commanders had to work off of in the actual fighting (with unit positions and phase lines added, obviously).

When you read one of the green books, the maps fold out to the left, with the area covered by turned pages blank. Larger maps fold open more than one "panel". The result is you don't have to keep flipping pages, but instead can look across and follow the locations the narrative is talking about.

When the narrative moves on to the next fight, you soon get a new map, so there is usually one open when you are reading. It was a good system, and I wonder that modern history books don't use something of the kind.

They also have occasional photographs, including aerial shots, of tactical fight locations, so you can get a better sense of what the terrain on the map really looks like in real life. I highly recommend them.

Of course, the maps alone are very useful for scenario design work, and especially for campaign design (linked scenarios, operations, however you like to handle bigger things than one CM half-hour battle).

It would be great to have them all on the web, if somebody has the space to put them. The US center for military history has the text narrative of a few of them on the web, but nothing like all, and they don't have the great maps.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JasonC:

It was a good system, and I wonder that modern history books don't use something of the kind.

Cost. Modern bookbinding is something publishers don't like to think about, and the place where shortcuts and omissions are most likely to occur.

Michael