Public Demand: Who wants to see Titans of TH, RD, BoB clashing?

[Fionn]

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

Defender Force Points: 3000

Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited

Map Size (small, medium, large): Hmm, I'd like 1 km wide map by 2.4 km deep. Otherwise the defence has no depth.

Month: October

Time Of Day: day

Weather: clear

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 40

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Rural

Tree coverage: Light

Hilliness: Modest Hills

Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76 with 120mm limit.

Special Purchase Rules: NO exceptions to Panther/76. Exceptions unbalance the rules and, IMO, shouldn't be allowed in the tournament unless BOTH sides agree/

Force: Single (Heer, Brit Airborne, etc). Mixing Prohibited.

force unknown to enemy

Purchase Limitations:

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 100

Fortifications % : 100

Mike are you letting everyone select their own scenario? E.g. someone can ask to be the German attacker on a PERFECT attacking map? I dunno, it seems like a recipe for everyone to make up a really unfair "guaranteed win" situation to me.

[MajorTaktik]

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

Meeting Force Points: 3000

Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited

Map Size (small, medium, large): Medium

Month: October

Time Of Day: day

Weather: clear

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 40

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Rural

Tree coverage: Moderate

Hilliness: Small Hills

Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76

Special Purchase Rules:

- No ATG, Guns, Flak, Pupschen, etc..

- Max 2 companies infantry

- Max 1 hand held AT per plt (thus max 6 hand held AT)

- Max two 81mm FOs

- All other points will be spent on AFVs

Force: Single (Heer, Brit Airborne, etc). Mixing Prohibited.

Special Setup Parameters: Each side sets up in opposite corners of the map in roughly 500 x 500 areas. There should be at least three SMALL flags on the map (Umpire will need to place these) - 1 in one player's end, one in the middle, one in the other player's end.

Special Cheeeezzzzz rule: No targeting arty in the setup areas for first 5 turns or so

force unknown to enemy

Purchase Limitations:

Infantry % : See special purchase rules

Support % : See special purchase rules

Armor % : See special purchase rules

Artillery % : See special purchase rules

Fortifications % : See special purchase rules

Special scenario notes: This format, though containing several special rules, is really quite simple. It models a meeting engagement, doing away with perfectly placed hidden guns, very long, shallow setup zones and an over emphasis on holding flags. The focus is on speed, manuever and tank combat. There are enough Crunchies to entertain those who need them , but the battle will be decided on who manuevers his armored forces in a superior manner.

Tournament note: If this is too "specialized" for the tourney, then no worries. I figured with all the talk about infantry, arty that a tank battle should be thrown into the mix . Tanks, arm of decision!!!!

Craig

[Treeburst155]

Hold everything!!!

You guys cannot decide whether you are the attacker or defender. The scheduling program can not handle this many parameters. It does not work out. Whether you attack or defend, and which side you play is out of your control. You design the scenario. That's all. The Nabla scheduling program will determine your side and therefore your attack/defend duties.

You have only two choices in this area. The scenario can be either a) attack/defend, or b)meeting. I will decide which side attacks when I build the scenario, and the program will decide which side you play.

_________________________________________________

Fionn thinks special rules are unbalancing. The idea of the Special Rules is so players can exclude units that aren't modelled well like Flaktrucks and SMGs. Special rules may very well affect balance, so it would behoove players to be very careful here since they do not know what side they will play, or even which side will be attacking. You're all pros. You know how to keep things balanced.

Keep in mind NO FLAKTRUCKS is a universal rule all can agree on.

So, this was a false start due to more ambiguity.

Also, you do not have control over experience levels. Experience costs points and is left up to the purchasers. If the choice is not on the form, it is not available to you.

Another ambiguity comes to mind. Special Rules should be called Special Exclusions. All you can do here is exclude specific unit types and prevent mixing of types (FJ, Gebirgers, etc.)Specificity is required here! "No SMGs" is not specific enough. The towed guns/vehicles issue can also be addressed here.

The Parameters Form has been updated. Let's try it again, and see how far we get before we run into more issues.

Treeburst155 out.

[ June 13, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

Map dimensions and number and value of VLs will have to remain QB standard based on the map size parameter (small, medium, and large) and the force size. I will take this info from a QB along with setup zone dimensions. To do otherwise means I am actually designing maps. Any imbalance would be blamed on me. I don't want to stick my neck out that far. I've created almost symmetrical maps and had complaints of imbalance in the past.

I WILL clean up the maps so they're nice, and adjust the location of VLs where I think they need adjusting. I may even run some battles north/south instead of east/west, but the "frontline" will always be the same standard QB length with the standard depth. I will just switch the dimensions if I decide to run north/south. Arty in a north/south game is kinda hairy sometimes, eh?

Treeburst155 out.

[MajorTaktik]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Map dimensions and number and value of VLs will have to remain QB standard based on the map size parameter (small, medium, and large) and the force size. I will take this info from a QB along with setup zone dimensions. To do otherwise means I am actually designing maps. Any imbalance would be blamed on me. I don't want to stick my neck out that far. I've created almost symmetrical maps and had complaints of imbalance in the past.

I WILL clean up the maps so they're nice, and adjust the location of VLs where I think they need adjusting. I may even run some battles north/south instead of east/west, but the "frontline" will always be the same standard QB length with the standard depth. I will just switch the dimensions if I decide to run north/south. Arty in a north/south game is kinda hairy sometimes, eh?

Treeburst155 out.

In that case, forget my idea for an ME

Craig

[Fionn]

Mike,

If you just hit auto-generate after changing the width etc etc as requested you can't be blamed.

I think the current QB attack/defence map parameters are "unrealistic" to say the least.

[Treeburst155]

If I auto-generate maps with dimensions specified by the players I would need guidance on setup zone dimensions for the attack/defend battles. For example: 1/2 the map for the defender, 1/4 no-mans land, 1/4 for attacker. This should be a uniform standard for all the attack/defend maps I think. Also, rather than width and heighth, map dimensions should be specified as "frontline" and "depth" for clarity.

Flag placement is another issue. I could get an idea of point value and number of flags from a comparable QB, but what about placement? That could be very important.

Treeburst155 out.

[Combat Opinion Staff]

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

Attack/defend or meeting? meeting

Defender Force Points: n/a

Meeting Force Points (if meeting): 3000

Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited

Map Size (small, medium, large): medium

Month: October

Time Of Day: day

Weather: clear

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 35 turns

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): farmland

Tree coverage: heavy

Hilliness: modest

FORCE PURCHASE RULESET: unlimited

Special Purchase Rules: no armed Sdkfz, no aircraft, no force mixing, Heer or Waffen-SS vs American regular or British regular, guns with transport and start in tow, maximum 6 HMCM8's

FORCE known to enemy? no

Infantry % : 50%(1500pts)

Support % : 25%(750pts)

Vehicle % : 20%(600pts)

Armor % : 33.33%(1000pts)

Artillery % : 20%(600pts)

Fortifications % : 0%

Special Notes:

Map dimensions: standard QB ME

Flag Placement: 3 large flags in line spaced 450 meters apart from eachother(end flags 900 meters seperate)

Swamp

[ June 13, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Combat Opinion Staff ]

[Treeburst155]

Major Tactik's and Swamp's latest will work for me. Why? They are specific about flag placement and size, and setup zones for MEs are not an issue. Major Tactik even supplies that.

Major Tactik's and Swamp's battles are approved!

For the rest, if you want an attack/defend scenario you need to specify:

1)frontline and depth (map dimensions)

2)setup zones as portion of map (1/2 defender, 1/4 attacker, etc)

3)number of flags, their values, and depth of placement in the defender's zone.

Broken, you may want to do yours again since so much has changed since then. We've two down and six to go. The Form has been revised again.

Treeburst155 out.

[ June 13, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Deathdealer]

I'm with Fionn here - just set the map dimensions and hit autogenerate besides it's our fault if we didn't get those Apache Longbows to help us out

My map would be 1440m (N-S) and 1840m (E-W) defend/attack situation (defender gets about 1000m depth - and attacker gets about 400m - up to editor). Flags not necessary, only if Treeburst thinks they are needed, timelimit 45. Village, heavy forest, modest hills, dawn, dry ground, snowing, Feb '45.

Situation: 3000 for defender, only mortars can be dumbed (2", 60mm, 81mm) unlimitedly, Panther/76 rules with 120/4,2" FOs (limited to 15% ie def gets 450, att gets 675 - can go some 20-30pts over if one FO is almost in range of points). All attacking guns need towing vehicle, all mines etc available. Inf/Support/Vehicles/Armor/Forts unlimited.

Allied side may mix ABs with vanilla infantry in company/battalion scale (ie no individual AB plts) but not countries. Of course plain ABs allowed too but then no armor. HMC M8s max half a dozen (intepret that whichever way you like )

Axis side can't mix branches ie GBs with armor. Also VG SMGs must be bought in battalion and Fusiliers in company scale (SMG/Fus coys come with light FOs etc). No flaktrucks (again )

I've always been bad filling formats

[ June 13, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Deathdealer ]

[Treeburst155]

OK, Deathdealer, you seem to have covered everything. Your's is approved! I like the idea of no flags in an attack/defend. It doesn't work in a Meeting engagement cuz one guy can just hunker down and wait, but in attack/defend it sounds excellent!

I will send all players the rules for each scenario as I complete the scenario.

Five more to go!!

Treeburst155 out.

[Broken]

Treeburst155 said:

You guys cannot decide whether you are the attacker or defender. The scheduling program can not handle this many parameters. It does not work out. Whether you attack or defend, and which side you play is out of your control. You design the scenario. That's all. The Nabla scheduling program will determine your side and therefore your attack/defend duties.

You have only two choices in this area. The scenario can be either a) attack/defend, or b)meeting. I will decide which side attacks when I build the scenario, and the program will decide which side you play.

Mike,

In my Parameters form, I asked that the defender be Axis, not that I was defender. Are you saying we cannot select which side is defending? I selected my parameters so that the defender would have a reasonable chance of winning IF the defender was Axis. The parameters, as chosen, assume an Axis defender because of the Axis advantages in infantry, etc., plus the map specifications, give a reasonable balance to the game. Having an Axis attacker would unbalance it.

I like Fionn's idea of non-QB map dimensions. It is easy to auto-generated maps of whatever dimensions using the editor.

Normally in a QB one can specify troop Quality. Are you saying all quality levels should be allowed or just the typical Regular and Vet choices? I like have three levels to choose from, but I can live with whatever the consensus is.

[Deathdealer]

Ups...

After some thinking I want to add couple of things to my requested map... ie attacker/defender nominations is totally up to Treeburst and another maybe little more important is no 20 TRPs in attackers setup area ...

Hope this isn't too much of inconvenience

[Broken]

Mike,

I like the standard 3000 pt QB medium attack map, but keep the VLs within 200 meters of the defenders map edge. Typically, for a 3000 pt attack/defend, this generates 2200 pts of VLs. So, just generate a standard map, adjust the VL sizes until you have 2200 pts worth and then move any VLs greater than 200 meters from the defenders map edge to within 200 meters.

Also, as I said before, I assumed the attacker in my submittal was Allied, for play-balance.

Finally, I don't the the idea of no VLs for an attack/defend. The defender can simply dump all his arty in the attacker's setup zone (takes three turns to unload everything with 120mms and TRPs) and then retreat off the map. Any damage at all guarantees the defender a win.

[Treeburst155]

Broken,

OK,I misunderstood about the Allied attacker thing. I reacted to Fionn's question relating to it without double-checking what you had specified there. Another thing that threw me was that there was no choice for attacking force on the form.

I see no reason why players shouldn't have control over which side does the attacking since balance can be affected by that decision. I'd rather you guys make balance affecting decisions than me. The more decisions you guys make the better off I am. This is no problem and will go on the form, just so it is clear that you cannot choose your side or attack/defend duties when it comes to the matches.

TROOP QUALITY

Being able to mix and match troop quality is one of the benefits of purchasing forces in the editor. It also costs points. I think it adds a little more dimension to the game if players are given complete freedom in the quality department. More decisions regarding purchases, more uncertainty for the enemy.

NO VLs FOR ATTACK DEFEND SCENARIOS

Broken has an excellent point here. We will have VLs for attack/defend scenarios. This means location from the defenders edge will have to be specified.

Deathdealer,

Regarding TRP's in attacker's setup area. These are exactly the kind of things you guys need to watch out for when filling out the form. It can get real tricky as we're finding out.

What I'm going to do now is a total revision of the Parameters Form based on all we've learned from these false starts. I'm then going to send it to you all for you to fill out. Take your time putting together your battle so you don't miss something like Deathdealer's 20 TRPs in the attacker's setup area.

This can be a very good tournament I think if you guys can hang in there awhile longer. We're creating an entirely different tourney format here that is quite involved. I think it will be worth the effort. The key is the Parameters Form.

I'm working on it now.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

I can't resist showing off my new Battle Parameters Form. Besides, it needs to be beta-tested anyway. Go ahead, try to find some holes in this one. Create a battle with it if you can spare the time. Who knows, this just might be the final version so we can use the battle you create here.

EDIT: There are no global rules!! Everything must go on the form, even Flaktrucks. If it's not on the form it is unrestricted!

________________________________________________

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

____________________________________________________________________

Attack/defend or meeting?

____________________________________________________________________

MEETING ONLY

Number of flags:

Flag value(all flags must have the same value): 100 or 300

Flag spacing on centerline:

Force Points:

____________________________________________________________________

ATTACK/DEFEND ONLY

Number of flags:

Flag value(all flags must have the same value): 100 or 300

Flag spacing parallel to frontline:

Flag distance from defender's map edge:

Depth of defender's setup zone in meters:

Depth of attacker's setup zone in meters:

NOTE: All zones will originate from the map edges leaving a no-

man's land between. Customized zones are allowed if dimensions

and locations are specifically defined by you.

Defender's Force Points (attacker will get 1.5 times this):

Defending side: Axis or Allies

____________________________________________________________________

Map Dimensions, frontline: depth:

Month:

Time Of Day:

Weather:

Ground Conditions:

Game Length:

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.):

Tree coverage:

Hilliness(flat, gentle, small, modest, large):

____________________________________________________________________

Established Force Purchase Ruleset (can be none):

Allied FORCE (Brits, American Airborne, unlimited, etc.):

German FORCE (Heer, Gebirgsjaeger, unlimited, etc.):

NOTE: Choose one, you can modify later and "unlimited" is a choice.

FORCE known to enemy?

FORCE TYPE (Combined Arms, Mechanized, etc.) will be determined by

filling in the maximum percentage of total force points that can be

spent in a category. For "unlimited" you would simply put in 100%

for all categories.

Note: Players can fudge on these percentages up to 25 points. This

is the absolute maximum fudging allowed unless addressed in the

next section!

Allied

Infantry % :

Support % :

Armor % :

Artillery % :

Fortifications % :

Axis

Infantry % :

Support % :

Armor % :

Artillery % :

Fortifications % :

***Make sure FORCE and FORCE TYPE percentages are compatible!!*****

___________________________________________________________________

FORCE PURCHASE EXCLUSIONS, LIMITATIONS, SPECIAL RULES

Here is where you modify and customize everything in the section

above, along with anything else you think of. Below is a fairly

comprehensive checklist of things you might want to address in this

section. You are NOT limited to these items.

1) guns and vehicles to tow them

2) mixing of forces (Brit Airborne with American, etc.)

3) flaktrucks

4) SMGs

5) HMCs

6) The Fortifications category

7) FORCE TYPE fudge limit

8) anti-CHEEEEZ rules

9) force editing limitations

10) troop quality restrictions

___________________________________________________________________

Congratulations! The scenario will bear your name, and this form

will be in the general briefing. The community can refight this

Titan's battle as it was originally fought.

[ June 13, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Broken]

________________________________________________

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

____________________________________________________________________

Attack/defend or meeting? Attack

Number of flags: 7

Flag value(all flags must have the same value): 300

Flag spacing parallel to frontline:

Flag 200m Flag 200m Flag 100m Flag* 100m Flag 200m Flag 200m Flag with middle flag* behind the center of the village.

Flag distance from defender's map edge:

100m.

Depth of defender's setup zone in meters:

600 meters

Depth of attacker's setup zone in meters:

300 meters

Defender's Force Points (attacker will get 1.5 times this): 3000

Defending side: Axis

____________________________________________________________________

Map Dimensions, frontline: 2000m depth: 1040m

Month: August

Time Of Day: Day

Weather: Fair

Ground Conditions: Dry

Game Length: 31

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Village

Tree coverage: Heavy

Hilliness(flat, gentle, small, modest, large): Modest

____________________________________________________________________

Established Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76 with 155mm limit

Allied FORCE (Brits, American Airborne, unlimited, etc.): Single Force, Mixing Prohibited

German FORCE (Heer, Gebirgsjaeger, unlimited, etc.): Single Force, Mixing Prohibited

FORCE known to enemy? No

FORCE TYPE

Allied

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 25

Fortifications % : 0

Axis

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 25

Fortifications % : 100

___________________________________________________________________

FORCE PURCHASE EXCLUSIONS, LIMITATIONS, SPECIAL RULES

mixing of forces prohibited

flak trucks prohibited

fighter-bombers prohibited

HMCs limited to 50% of Armor purchase points

AT mines prohibited (Daisy Chains OK)

FORCE TYPE fudge limit: none

force editing limitations: The deleting of units from within purchased formations is unlimited. No editing of unit quality allowed.

troop quality restrictions: No conscript or elite

[Deathdealer]

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM: Deathdealers map settings

Attack with 4500 against defend with 3000

Number of flags: 2 + 4 ie 2 about 100 to 200 apart maybe 600 from defenders map edge. The other 4 in square about 100 to 200m apart maybe 100 to 200m from defenders map edge. These clusters can be sideways compared to each other ie for example first pair of flags more north while other group more to south. Idea to have two smallish village centers to defend. Flag placing up to editor. Flag value 300.

Depth of defender's setup zone in meters: about 1000, up to editor

Depth of attacker's setup zone in meters: about 400, up to editor

Defending side: Axis or Allies, up to editor

Map Dimensions, frontline: depth: 1440 (N-S) frontline, 1840 (E-W) deep

Month: Feb '45

Time Of Day: dawn

Weather: snowing

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 45

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): village

Tree coverage: heavy

Hilliness(flat, gentle, small, modest, large): modest

__________________________________________________

Established Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther/76s with 120/4,2" FOs

Allied FORCE: No country mixing, ABs can accompany vanilla infantry (companies/battalions) in company strength (no single plts) ie for every AB company there must be at least one inf company. Plain ABs get NO ARMOR, vehicles yes.

German FORCE: No branch mixing (GBs have no armor etc), VG SMGs must be in battalion strength, VG Fusiliers in company strength (come with support units)

FORCE known to enemy? No

FORCE TYPE: unrestricted - see below

Allied

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 15 (can be 20-30 pts over if one EARTH SHATTERING FO is almost in range )

Fortifications % : 100

Axis

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 15 (can be 20-30 pts over if one EARTH SHATTERING FO is almost in range )

Fortifications % : 100

__________________________________________________

FORCE PURCHASE EXCLUSIONS, LIMITATIONS, SPECIAL RULES

1) Attacking guns need vehicles to tow them

2) mixing of forces - see above

3) no flaktrucks

4) VGs - see above

5) HMCs - max about half a dozen: intepret anyway you like

6) The Fortifications category - unlimited other than that no TRPs into attackers setup area, defender can have up to 8 TRPs while attacker can have up to 3 TRPs anywhere he likes

7) force editing limitations: mortars can freely be removed (2"s, 60s, 81s), no other adjustment to platoons/companies/battalions, no HQ bonus adjusting, no ammo adjusting, no troop quality adjusting within platoons/companies/battalions ie remain as purchased

8) troop quality restrictions - green, reg, vet, crack

9) LAST BUT NOT LEAST - NO FORWARD CREW SCOUTING, both sides should have enough infantry to do that ie vehicle/gun/mortar etc crews should head for nearest cover and out of immidiate warzone. Crews may be used as area observers in side hills or some such place well beyond fighting line - I usually move my unlucky crews to some hill overwatching action on MY side of fighting

[ June 14, 2002, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Deathdealer ]

[Treeburst155]

Very Nice!!

Thanks guys, for going through it all again. I think we're ready to roll here. Broken and Deathdealer, your scenarios are approved. .

I will be sending out the form to all participants as soon as I get a chance (within 24 hours). Today is honey-do day.

You guys can do like Broken and Deathdealer, and post your scenario parameters here if you don't want to wait. Make sure you cover everything on the form. The latest version is three posts up.

Treeburst155 out.

[Combat Opinion Staff]

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

____________________________________________________________________

Attack/defend or meeting? meeting

____________________________________________________________________

MEETING ONLY

Number of flags: 3

Flag value: 300

Flag spacing on centerline: 450

Force Points: 3000

____________________________________________________________________

Map Dimensions, frontline: 2000 depth: 1040

Month: October

Time Of Day: day

Weather: clear

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 35

Map Type: farmland

Tree coverage: heavy

Hilliness: modest

____________________________________________________________________

Established Force Purchase Ruleset (can be none): Panther 76

Allied FORCE: British regular and British Airborne

German FORCE: unlimited

FORCE known to enemy? no

Allied

Infantry % : 50%(1500pts)

Support % : 25%(750pts)

Vehicle % : 20%(600pts)

Armor % : 33.33%(1000pts)

Artillery % : 20%(600pts)

Fortifications % : 0%

Axis

Infantry % : 50%(1500pts)

Support % : 25%(750pts)

Vehicle % : 20%(600pts)

Armor % : 33.33%(1000pts)

Artillery % : 20%(600pts)

Fortifications % : 0%

___________________________________________________________________

FORCE PURCHASE EXCLUSIONS, LIMITATIONS, SPECIAL RULES

1) guns must start in tow

2) British regular and British Airborne can mix, all German forces can mix

3) no flaktrucks

4) FORCE TYPE fudge limit: 0%

5) force editing limitations: unlimited

6) troop quality restrictions: regular or veteran

7) no aircraft

8) no crew scouting

___________________________________________________________________

Edit: changed to Panther 76

Swamp

[ June 14, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Combat Opinion Staff ]

[MajorTaktik]

____________________________________________________________________

Attack/defend or meeting? Meeting

____________________________________________________________________

MEETING ONLY

Number of flags: 3

Flag value: 100

Flag spacing on centerline: 550

Force Points: 3000

____________________________________________________________________

Map Dimensions, frontline: 1440 (read this as height in editor) depth: 3040 (read this as width in editor)

Special: Setup zones should be in opposite corners of the map in roughly 500x500 areas

Month: March, 45

Time Of Day: Day

Weather: Clear

Ground Conditions: Dry

Game Length: 40

Map Type: Farmland

Tree coverage: Moderate

Hilliness: Small

____________________________________________________________________

Established Force Purchase Ruleset (can be none):

Panther 76 (see special arty rules)

Allied FORCE: Basic rifle

German FORCE: Basic rifle and/or Panzergrenadier

FORCE known to enemy? No

Allied

Infantry % : See special purchase rules

Support % : See special purchase rules

Vehicle % : See special purchase rules

Armor % : See special purchase rules

Artillery % : See special purchase rules

Fortifications % : 0%

Axis

Infantry % : See special purchase rules

Support % : See special purchase rules

Vehicle % : See special purchase rules

Armor % : See special purchase rules

Artillery % : See special purchase rules

Fortifications % : 0%

___________________________________________________________________

FORCE PURCHASE EXCLUSIONS, LIMITATIONS, SPECIAL RULES

1) no emplaced guns, meaning no ATG, guns, pupschen, flak, etc...

2) Max two companies infantry

3) Max 1 hand held AT (schrecks, piat, zooks) per plt, thus a Max of 6

4) Max two 81mm FOs

5) Max two plts light tanks/vehicles (8-10 light AFVs/ACs/HTs)

6) Rest of the points spent on MBTs/TDs/AGs

7) No flaktrucks

8) FORCE TYPE fudge limit: 0%

9) force editing limitations: unlimited

10) troop quality restrictions: Regular to Crack

11) No aircraft

12) ANTI-CHEEEZZZ: Artillery can not be dumped in the setup zones for first 5 turns.

Scenario Note: This is an armored battle. Less infantry is acceptable, but the max must be observed. Hopefully, the map will be nice tank country. Though infantry will play a much lesser role than usual, they can still be effectively used as security, AT ambushes and extra eyes for the TCs. The map is big so it is a good idea to mount infantry right off the bat.

__________________________________________________________________

Major Taktik

[Fionn]

Unlimited purchases?

So, 300mm Nbws vs 14 inch arty and SuperPershings vs KTs eh? Sounds the opposite of exciting and I don't think it'll tell us all that much about who is skillful or not. It'll just be a race to see whose arty fires first. Whoever lands the first good salvo wins.

I had a couple of games like that and remember winning one of them 100-0 in a previous tournament. My opponent insisted on unlimited purchases because he had the idea of blasting me off the map using uebertanks etc so I decided to teach him a bit of a lesson... I purchased 3 x 210mm (high-experience)FOs and TRPs. I had enough points left over for 1 company of infantry and some schrecks. NO tanks etc...

I placed the TRPs in his setup zone and we began. I targetted the width of his setup zone ( it was a smallish map) ith my 3 x 210mm FOs ( 1 to the left, 1 to the centre, 1 to the right). They took 2 turns to begin arriving. By turn 5 or so all their shells were gone. My opponent surrendered on turn 6.

I had taken out all his towed guns, all his tanks ( except one which was immobilised and had 1 crew casualty) and the vast majority of his infantry. His entire force had been destroyed, not by skill, but by me being absolutely unrealistic forces in order to show him the peril of unlimited purchases.

Maybe I'm just missing something of course and someone will tell me that aiming 3 14 inch FOs to ohliterate everything in an 800 metre wide by 300 metre deep area is a true test of skill but I just don't see it myself... Certainly not when compared to moving infantry around the map, cunningly using terrain to one's advantage etc.

I guess I am beginning to see what is causing me some philosophical issues here:

My idea of the "best player" is the guy with the best grasp of tactics both at the small unit level and higher.

Others seem to view the guy who can win most emphatically as the best player ( a valid viewpoint of course). The only problem is that the most emphatic victory consists of killing your enemy in his setup zone with massive Fighter-bomber or arty strikes at the beginning of turn2 using the heaviest arty available OR just blowing all your points on 1 tank in the hope that your ELITE KT can kill his ELITE SuperPershing and thus pretty much ensure you'll win the resulting game.

I'm not going to start saying those who like those sorts of matchups aren't really seeing "the best" in action but perhaps it is something that should be publicly addressed.

I think this might have to do with the fact that I'm not a ladder player therefore, for me, it is more important to set up a realistic sort of map, play a believable sort of situation with fairly common forces in which most of the fun comes from really working to maneuvre my forces around since they don't have the firepower to simply push straight ahead and bull through.

I think that gives me a very different viewpoint to some of the ladder players. Again, not calling anyone "wrong" or anything like that just pointing out that it strikes me some of the ladder players just have a very different concept of what makes a "good" player. I've always thought of the heaviest arty and heaviest tanks as being the refuge of poor players since it takes very, very little ability to devastate a position with 300mm or 14inch arty. However if you can devastate the same position with 81mm or 105mm arty THEN come back and I'll think you really must be very good.

Does anyone see where I'm coming from with this? I'd be very interested indeed in hearing people's opinions about this ( I think it comes down to a divide between "game players" ( who may gravitate towards ladders more) and "historical players" ( who, while they might play to win, are more interested in trying to be a bit historically believable while doing so).

Again, I want to emphasise that I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I see it as a difference in opinion and viewpoint and not as a case of "X is right, Y is wrong."

[Combat Opinion Staff]

Does anyone see where I'm coming from with this? I'd be very interested indeed in hearing people's opinions about this ( I think it comes down to a divide between "game players" ( who may gravitate towards ladders more) and "historical players" ( who, while they might play to win, are more interested in trying to be a bit historically believable while doing so).

Well I can tell you what I see at TH. Everyone there buys 105mm, 4.2 inch, and 120mm, priests, sextons, cromwells, shermans, HMCM8's, hellcats, jacksons, hetzers, PZIV's, StuGs, StuHs. We evolved past the big wastes of purchasing points a long time ago. Edit: forgot to meantion: at TH, fast arty kills.

Swamp

[ June 14, 2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Combat Opinion Staff ]

[Fionn]

Swamp,

All of the things you mentioned are allowed under the Panther/76 rules ( the rules I most often use when playing BTW).

So, my question becomes...

Why do you want unlimited rules if everything you buy falls under the Panther/76 rules? If you don't want anything ultra-big then why not just go with the Panther76 rules and outrule it. You'll still haev access to all the stuff you say you want to buy.

Thanks for the reply though. It is reassuring to read what you have written re: TH.

[Combat Opinion Staff]

Hmm, ok a new rule for mine which I'll edit in: no nebelwerfers. As for King Tigers, Super Pershings, etc in heavy trees? I don't think that's an problem.

Swamp