So very few surrender now. Realistic?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

In huge strategical operations whole soviet armies were encircled (in the mid of their preparing for the attack on germany as Victor Suworow prooves), and those troops had a very bad morale and stopped fighting as soon as they could.

1. Suvorov doesn't prove, he alleges, and much of what he alleges—as in this particular instance—has been roundly disproven by better scholarship in recent years.

2. In the large capitulations of 1941, it was not the morale of the troops that had collapsed, but of their leaders and commanders. Where they had resolute leadership, they fought on and in many cases even managed to break out of the encirclements. Even when breaking out proved impossible, they wore out the German troops (many of whom belonged to the irreplaceble fast divisions), inflicting casualties on both men and equipment, and imposing delays that the Germans could ill afford.

Suggest you find a copy of War Without Garlands by Robert Kershaw for a more accurate picture of the issue.

Michael

[ October 23, 2002, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Ligur]

I am inclined to agree with Michael. From all what I have read, I have gathered a picture of the Russian peasant as a tough feller who would defened his home.

The officers? Not so good at first, since Stalin took out the good ones.

The Russian propaganda was quite severe though. Was it Ehrenburg who told the soldiers to "kill the children in their mothers wombs?" Someone wrote a pome named "Kill Him" to Pravda for all frontoviks to read. After enough of this the Russians started seeing even young German children as embryos of SS-men who would later spawn to attack if not killed now. Many, apparently, started deeply hating the inhuman Germans. In such a situation surrender, one would think, or mercy, became rare.

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by illo:

In one scenario i had weird auto-ceasefire.

I had 7 casualties out of around 240men OK, 27 tanks ok 0 destroyed. Opponent had 48 tanks killed and around 200 casualties. I was just going to encircle remnants of his troops to force surrender when game suddenly ended in cease fire!!! :eek:

I would have never ever agreed ceasefire on such circumstances. I was about to knock out 10 remaining tanks which were panicking most with their guns damaged and capture/kill large number of his troops with about no risk whatsoever.

Then sudden ceasefire (which i had not agreed) ends the game 10 turns before end. What is this?

I guess that you were running low on ammo globally. Then an automatic cease-fire request is made by your side. If the other side has also made a cease-fire request, the game ends.

Back to the topic: I had a nearly full squad (one casualty) surrender to me just yesterday. It was surrounded by several vehicles, but not even spotted. When I moved a squad near them (still not spotted) they suddenly gave up. I was quite surprised.

Dschugaschwili

[Schoerner]

Michael, thanks for the booktip.

I'll surely go for it, 'cause i can't imagine, the sensational documents Suworov shows (as one of the first who gained access to the partially opened archives) can be refuted.

Once again, an exciting reading is guaranteed.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Michael, thanks for the booktip.

You are certainly most welcome.

I'll surely go for it, 'cause i can't imagine, the sensational documents Suworov shows (as one of the first who gained access to the partially opened archives) can be refuted.

There have apparently been many books and articles written in the past decade or so that address the disinformation campaign of Suvorov, most of which I admit I have not yet seen. I have read, and would recommend Grand Delusion: Stalin and the German Invasion of Russia by Gabriel Gorodetsky, which among other things deals with the notion that the Soviets were preparing to open hostilities with Germany in 1941. It gives a pretty complete rundown on the diplomatic and military events leading up to the war.

Michael

[Schoerner]

Michael, i can't find a german version of Michael Kershaw's book. All i find is the book about the bridge of Remagen.

Gorodetzky is a jew and therefore i'm extremely sceptical, he is interested in historical research only.

The book of Gabriel Gorodetzky is available, but i'm even more sceptical after reading the reviews:

the reviews tell about new "facts" found in recently opened archieves, but they don't name only one fact.

My impression i get from the reviews is that this book once again deals with politics and diplomacy and which side which reasons had or not but i want facts.

Maybe you can tell me, if Gorodetzky discusses in his book some of the facts Suworov shows.

I'll give you a few examples, for understanding what i mean (i don't want to discuss them here, i just want to know if Gorodetzky touches these facts or (once again) they are left ignored):

The ~2000 destroyed soviet fighters, stationed on provisional field-airfields close to german border in the first 24 hours of Barbarossa.

This means that around half of the soviet air-force was stationed MUCH to close to german borders for defensive action.

Evn more, every wargamer knows, that this is a prototypically example for preparing for an attack but it was and will NEVER be used in a normal strategical defensive situation which requires deep graduation of the forces - this is even more true for a huge country.

The tons of maps of german territory found at the soviet troops, but no maps of Russia.

The millions of men under weapons concentrated that close to the borders and concentrated like the air-force in typical preparation-areas perfect for an attack but absolutely useless for defensive action (also the 3 million POW made within only the first 6 weeks fit perfectly).

How does Gorodetzky explain, under which circumstances it was possible to make such an enormous number of prisoners of regular fighting troops withing 6 weeks only, if it isn't true, that the soviet armies were hit during the weakest phase of each army - during the preparation for an attack?

The fact why after the won war against france, most of the divisions were disbanded, if a war against the Soviet-Union was already planned.

The fact that Germany had no uniforms for war in winter, if the war was well planned and not a provisorial preventive-war.

The fact that the civilian production capacities of the industry were increased again after won war against France.

Does Gorodetzky discuss these facts and tries to proove them to be wrong?

[ October 24, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Lt. Kije]

I hate to bring this thread back to the original topic, but if I may offer up one example of my original thesis....

I have just taken a screen shot, late in a QB, of a Russian crew (of a recently deceased light vehicle). I regret that I have no URL available at which I can post the image so that I can link to it in this message. If anyone becomes hot and itchy with desire to see the pic and can help me post the image, I will.

They are pretty much surrounded. A German flamethrower halftrack has just circled their area, squirting liquid fire onto most everthing. They have a few German Panzergrenadier squads and HQs around and a fully functional MK IV panzer, with plenty of ammo, a few yards away. Global morale for the Russians has to be terrible at this point, since they have lost about a battalion of their men and have only one unmolested victory flag location left.

Please guess at what the Russian crew is doing. Surrendering? Nope. They are firing their pistols, all two pistols mind you, at the nearest Panzergrenadier squad.

I'm sure I'm the only one who is seeing this kind of behavior in QB after QB. I'm sure everyone else is fighting reasonable Russians, sensible Russians, thoughtful Russians. I just thought I'd post an example from the universe I find myself fighting in.

The Russians owned by my personal computer are far beyond mere Japanese on Iwo Jima. They don't just prefer death to surrender. The guys I'm fighting are The Undead. I hope you fellows who are not experiencing this realize how lucky you are.

-- Lt. Kije

(And save your breath with that, "Oh, this is just an isolated example and proves nothing," claptrap. I'm seeing rampant fanaticism in every QB I play against my personal computer's Russians.)

[ October 23, 2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Lt. Kije ]

[Michael Emrys]

I hate to be the one to break the news to you, Lieutenant, but it seems that you got one of the Special Eastern Edition CDs of the game. These were intended to be distributed in the republics of the Former Soviet Union as a feelgood gift to get players there hooked on the game. Evidently you got one by mistake. If you return it and ask for the Überfinn Edition, everything will be straightened out in due time.

Very sincerely,

Michael

[Schoerner]

Michael, please would you be so kind and tell me, if Gorodetzky discusses the topics i mentioned above, in his book?

[blazethedog]

LT, Have seen this many times myself. Played a QB last night with 30+ turns and 2000pts. I lost one guy due to the fact that I pasted the commies with artillery while they were crossing a field and then launched a counter-attack(in the open) with Stugs, a MKIV, and supporting infantry. Not one of those B@stards would surrender. I finally asked by turn 27 if they wanted a cease fire. They immediately accepted. The numbers were something like 150 killed, 500 casualties, and 250 okay. Of the 20 or so units remaining, only 3 were in fighting shape and the rest were close to half strength, broken, exhausted, and or suffer panic. Global morale was 19 for them. I am wondering why they didn't initiate an auto-ceasefire?

[Hat Trick]

From Schoener

Gorodetzky is a jew and therefore i'm extremely sceptical

What is this about?

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Echo:

Were not both the Germans and Russians loathe to surrender for fear of execution?

After the first year of the war, they sure were.

In CMBB, it seems that quite a few people will surrender under the right circumstances. Usually that means that the global morale is low enough to cause them to surrender when under heavy fire. Plenty of immobile MG's and ATR's will surrender when under fire and trying to move.

Chad

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Hat Trick:

From Schoener </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Gorodetzky is a jew and therefore i'm extremely sceptical

What is this about?</font>

[Franko]

Maybe.