WWII footage of axis crew trapped in burning tank

[Determinant]

This thread is pure blather. You have to be impressed by James Joyce. He invented stream of consciousness without any assistance from the internet. Humbling thought really. Guys: read some books without pictures, talk to people face to face. Maybe it'll improve your posts.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Determinant:

This thread is pure blather. You have to be impressed by James Joyce. He invented stream of consciousness without any assistance from the internet. Humbling thought really. Guys: read some books without pictures, talk to people face to face. Maybe it'll improve your posts.

Sometimes knowing when not to post at all is also a skill people need to learn, Determinant.

In all honesty, I got an email with a very good book recommendation out of this thread - and a PBEM set up to boot, so I am quite happy. It has been thought provoking - some of it - and not 100 percent drivel. Maybe you need to read through it again?

If not, why waste your time posting? Seems odd.

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Determinant:

Guys: read some books without pictures, talk to people face to face. Maybe it'll improve your posts.

As a matter of fact, my remark about catching a bullet in the teeth stems from just having read Remarque's "All Quiet On The Western Front" again.

Don't assume intelligence or literacy levels. Maybe it'll improve your people-skills.

GG

[flamingknives]

Posted by: GreenGriffon

Don't assume intelligence or literacy levels. Maybe it'll improve your people-skills.

Which is something that you never do, of course.

Posted earlier by: GreenGriffon

That being said, why don't you hop on over to the Soldier-of-Fortune 2 forum and giggle with the other 12 year-olds about how cool the dismemberment features are. Leave the intellectual conversations around here to the adults.

Whoops.

I think everyone should chill a little.

The whole clip would be worth finding, if only to give an impression of real life WWII tank combat.

If it featured a commentary by the original film crew, this would also be useful to WWII historians, who would want to work from primary sources.

A short version, edited to increase shock value is not so useful as a historical source.

Lets all be a little more forgiving when reading other's posts and interpreting their motives shall we?

[Cyrus Logan]

double post.

[ May 24, 2002, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Cyrus Logan ]

[Cyrus Logan]

This post is direct to Green Grif and no one else.

:confused: My..where to begin you make it so easy to flame you for your total ineptness in human communication. 1) my comment about masterbation you left completly and utterly out of context , you stated like a drama queen how you feel i was watching this enjoying it saying "cool!" very ignorantly i might add how and why you assume this i dont know (issues me thinks), my comment was a sarcastic remark on your complete mis-interpretation of the whole question... in words you can understand , i dont beat my johnson to men dieing. Its called sarcasm get used to it im sure you miss it often but maybe write it off as "dumbpeople" but hey i dont know assumeing that would make ME ignorant now wouldnt it?.

2) Im 20 years old, yep not 12, older then you, why you assume im 12 fathoms me, or why you assume i play Soldier of Fortune 2 or even like first person shooters is confusing to me as well, you seem to make so many assumptions that it is quite hillarious and you have a picture of total fiction that is me.... the conclusions you come too..... how do you assume you know me, and how on earth do you sit there and so obviouslly twist peoples words to fit your own demented context on proving points beyond comprehension, what was your goal to make me look like a raving lunatic thats loves death and enjoys pleasuring himself to it? (lol). If you want to think i masterbate to tank footage.... well righty 'o' whatever floats your boats, but you without a doubt... have made an ass of yourself.

Here is some advice for you, dont take forums so seriouslly your going to get a hernia, just because people find footage of a tank being knocked out fascinating does not mean they eagerly wait for the closeup of the chared remains and spout "COOOOOOOL!!!!" then proceed to spank there monkey. If you believe that then you should be repeating what you so ignorantly said to me to the 60 million nightly viewers of CNN, CBS, ATT & Time Warner, and countless other "Conflicts on the Gazza Strip Coverage" viewers. I guarentee you people watch that because the footage of war.... is..... INTERESTING. War is fascinating and intersting thus CMBO sells... wargaming is intersting... historical wargames are based off history, and in those wars people died very much like on that footage, does this make us all "sick bastards" as you so delicatly put it? Get over it man, take a breather.

But hey what do i know im only 12. Right?

Cheers big ears.

I wont be responding to any of your petty and totally fictional assumptions of me after this i got things to do other then camp the forums trollio.

[ May 24, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Cyrus Logan ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

And Tero, I have not "inhumanized my opponent through intentional doctrination or cultural biases" LOL. The Nazi party inhumanized ITSELF with all that it stood for. I don't go around throwing these sentiments at any other race, creed, or class of people, even terrorists who blow themselves up in crowded civilian markets, so get off your high horse. I don't think I'm out of line by saying that the Nazis (not a small group of people by any measure) earned themselves a unique level of disgust because they calculated and implemented the wholesale systematic slaughter and disposal of millions of innocent human beings with unprecedented cruelty. They EARNED their reputation. Anyone who disagrees is just as entitled to their opinion as I am. And to try to compare the war crimes of the allies or Russians, alleged or proven, is laughable at best. History is a good judge of character and there's an established and unrefuted reason behind the stigma attached to the Nazi party.

I realize they had some pretty neat military toys, but let's not forget what they stood for. I enjoy playing with Tiger tanks as much as the next enthusiast, but sometimes I wonder what moral compass some of you follow.

In my opinion the the men who were responsible for Orador sur Glane and My Lai are in the same cathegory. To express wishes the other lot and all who wear the same uniform should die a horrible death and exclude parts of or apply different set of rules to the other lot for what ever reasons is not logical. Also, to express such wishes to anybody, no matter how guilty or not the people are, is sinking to the same level with the ones that are guilty.

NOTE: this applies to all nations and armies. My Lai is referred to only because of the frame of reference. I am sure there are similar pairs of evenst that trancend the time barrier.

The Nazi regime was guilty of truly evil acts. The guilty were punished but funnily enough the conquering powers let some of the evil men live because they served a purpose in the interest of their captors. Consequently, are the conquering powers guilty of the Nazi crimes because of this ?

I am a firm believer of the capital punishment. But not arbitrary capital punishment administered according to such criteria as guilty by association or guilty by virtue of inheritance and place of birth. Nor should the punisment serve a purpose other than the punishment for the actual crime commited. And all guilty of the same crime should suffer the same punishment.

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

The whole clip would be worth finding, if only to give an impression of real life WWII tank combat.

If it featured a commentary by the original film crew, this would also be useful to WWII historians, who would want to work from primary sources.

A short version, edited to increase shock value is not so useful as a historical source.

I'll "chill out" by not responding to the first half of your post. My remark was aimed at Determinant, who clearly only came in here to attack and deserved to be put in his place. Instead I'll comment on the constructive part of what you said...

First of all, I didn't realize there WAS any more to this clip when I posted it, which is why I put it up here to begin with. I knew with how knowledgeable some of the people here are regarding WWII media, I figured somebody would recognize it and comment on what was going on (which battle it was, who was involved, etc). Also I had never seen a Panther knocked out like that on film, and was wondering what took it out since it appears to be a front-side penetration.

Best case scenario, somebody would know the whole story behind the footage and point me in the direction of further information to research (documents, transcripts, etc). In particular, I was wondering if that particular Panther crewman did in fact survive to give a firsthand account of how the battle unfolded. But I would settle for someone just saying "Yeah that footage is from the battle of blah blah blah.....".

So you're right.....a short version edited for shock value is not useful as a historical source - unless you have people who recognize it and can elaborate further on it. That was my intention all along.

GG

[Ligur]

Now the site has some flamer footage followed by someone running in fire. The site claims it is a "child." Can't quite say, as flamers tend to make you shrink. I clicked the first .asf thinking it was the tank, not reading the title, and the flamer movie jumped me.

While a dose of realism is good once in a while for certain people, it is hard to imagine what moves the people who celebrate and wallow in it (authors of one of the many, many sites like orgish).

I can't understand why there were negative feelings towards GG. Thanks GG, the movie and some comments in this thread were indeed educational to some extent. I also now know I never, ever want to see war footage of flamers "in action" again.

By the way, did you know that in the middle ages (and many other ages) it was a common enjoyment for the whole family to watch hangings and executions. In our modern Western World our children are protected from violence and exposed to the fake thing, while a majority of children living in this planet have to live threats far more real. I don't know what to think of it.

[GreenGriffon]

No doubt Cyrus agonized for an hour on his...um...retort (and I use that term loosely). So I at least owe the charming boy a response.

And since the Gods of Thread-Locking have yet to be appeased, I might as well entertain myself (and hopefully others) as I drink my coffee.

Here goes...

Originally posted by Cyrus Logan:

you make it so easy to flame you for your total ineptness in human communication...i dont beat my johnson to men dieing...

Ineptness in human communication? Did you graduate from the Puff Daddy School of Speech or the Stevie Wonder Institute of Punctuation? Your grammar is atrocious for someone 20 years old (or any age for that matter) and your sentences do more running than the bulls of Pamplona.

my comment about masterbation you left completly and utterly out of context , you stated like a drama queen how you feel i was watching this enjoying it saying "cool!" very ignorantly i might add how and why you assume this i dont know (issues me thinks)

Issues? Do you realize that you've made references to "dropping the soap" twice and mentioned masturbation no less than 7 times in this thread? Need I say more?

Its called sarcasm get used to it im sure you miss it often but maybe write it off as "dumbpeople" but hey i dont know assumeing that would make ME ignorant now wouldnt it?.

Umm.....what are you babbling about? Form a coherent thought and get back to me on that one.

Im 20 years old, yep not 12, older then you, why you assume im 12 fathoms me, or why you assume i play Soldier of Fortune 2 or even like first person shooters is confusing to me as well

If you're really that confused, maybe you should read your above-referenced post regarding sarcasm a few more times, Ace.

And it "fathoms you", huh? To fathom something is to understand or comprehend it. Trying to sound articulate by using words you really don't understand makes you look even more foolish. Go easy on the S.A.T. words, mm'kay?

Incidently, I wasn't attempting to speculate on your videogame preferences. Telling you to hop on over to the Soldier of Fortune forums was a nice euphemism for "piss-off".

what was your goal to make me look like a raving lunatic thats loves death and enjoys pleasuring himself to it? (lol)

Since you're already laughing at yourself, take good a look at this next eloquent quote for the answer to this question.

[from one of his earlier posts]

please can you direct me to a link to where i can download this clip, again i repeated the question and pseudo-soap like drama discussions continue about death,life, babies, rainbows, Lifetime Network, im really sorry death doesnt bother me maybe because i have seen it every day on tv and even though its hollywood watching real footage ala ogrish.com or faces of death, its quite similair someones died. im not crying, sorry they died, im interested . not a freak, not "into" death, just curious, if you have the link please post it if not please carry on the discussions of life liberty and droping the soap on another thread for the love of god

Why would anyone ever think you're a raving lunatic? You're obviously a very well-adjusted young man.

If you want to think i masterbate to tank footage.... well righty 'o' whatever floats your boats, but you without a doubt... have made an ass of yourself.

LOL physician heal thyself.

just because people find footage of a tank being knocked out fascinating does not mean they eagerly wait for the closeup of the chared remains and spout "COOOOOOOL!!!!" then proceed to spank there monkey.

Gee, maybe you should stop right there before you begin to sound like a disturbed individual.

Just for ****s and giggles, I'm not sure what your fixation is with masturbation and worse yet, masturbation to graphic footage of death, but you probably shouldn't bring it up on a public forum (much less repeat it ad nauseam).

If you believe that then you should be repeating what you so ignorantly said to me to the 60 million nightly viewers of CNN, CBS, ATT & Time Warner, and countless other "Conflicts on the Gazza Strip Coverage" viewers.

When did AT&T merge with Time Warner? AOL must be furious about that. And AT&T has a nightly news broadcast that 60 million people watch?? Poor Tom Brokaw!

Evidently you're not one of their 60 million nightly viewers, because then you might actually know how to spell "Gaza".

I guarentee you people watch that because the footage of war.... is..... INTERESTING. War is fascinating and intersting thus CMBO sells... wargaming is intersting...

That's true, but on the other hand, YOU grew tiresome 2 pages ago.

historical wargames are based off history, and in those wars people died very much like on that footage, does this make us all "sick bastards" as you so delicatly put it?

A word of advice; when you quote someone, try to quote something they actually said. Otherwise you end up looking rather silly. Something you might want to consider for the future...

Cheers big ears.

Oh, that's rich. I'm waiting for you to follow up on that one by calling me a "Poopy-Head".

I wont be responding to any of your petty and totally fictional assumptions of me after this i got things to do other then camp the forums

Who said miracles can't happen!

You can always watch the AT&T news network...I hear that's pretty good.

GG

[ May 25, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: GreenGriffon ]

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Ligur:

I can't understand why there were negative feelings towards GG. Thanks GG, the movie and some comments in this thread were indeed educational to some extent.

You're welcome.

And I got reamed for two reasons.

1. I drew attention to a clip that was unfortunately hosted by Ogrish.com. And although I specifically said to disregard the hosting site and just pay attention to the video, people of course ignored what I said then decided to berate me for what they obviously saw there.

2. I also made a few strongly-worded statements about not feeling sympathy toward the axis soldiers as they no doubt roasted alive in that Panther. I said this in response to Gryphon's comment that the Panther crewmen were just "young men struggling for their lives" and they were "mowed down cowardly". This, to put it bluntly, pissed me off considering the Nazis showed no compassion and an inhuman level of cruelty toward the Jews, so I responded more sharply than I should have. But although war is a horrible thing, human suffering is even worse and nobody ever deserves it.

I certainly don't stand by the idea of "guilty by association" regarding soldiers fighting for the Nazi regime, so saying that these men deserved whatever they got because they were German soldiers was of course wrong. A few people went out of their way to constructively illustrate various reasons why someone might have fought in the German army (thereby fighting on behalf of the Nazis) that had nothing to do with actually agreeing with the Nazi cause, and although I consider myself fairly knowledgeable regarding the political climate of WWII, I still should have known better. I was just having a bad day.

I regret the trouble this thread has stirred up and apologize for it. I certainly didn't realize linking a video hosted by Ogrish was going to be such a heated topic. It is indeed a despicable site, and I only meant to draw attention to the clip itself. If I had webspace of my own, I would have hosted it myself. I was not aware that this forum recently had an Ogrish-related thread that caused some kind of trouble.

But some good things did come out of it. Like Michael Dorosh I got a good book recommendation out of it, and also found some of the discussion to be informative.

And tearing Cyrus apart was mildly amusing

GG

[ May 25, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: GreenGriffon ]

[Fionn]

Umm, guys.... Whoever died in that tank died in that tank a long time ago. Is all the shouting and vitriol really going to solve anything here? I think not.

So, let's get it RIGHT down to basics...

1. Everyone here would agree that burning to death is a pretty bad way to go.

2. Everyone here would agree that not all people are so nice that they deserve to die in their beds at 90. E.g. death camp guards deserve to be punished for their crimes and die young while people who hid jews for 5 years in their houses at great risk to themselves deserve a nice life ( ideally).

3. Most people in the German Army/Nation/War Effort fall somewhere in between these two poles.

4. Exactly how "bad" you think they were is a matter of OPINION!!!

5. Others have the right to hold a different opinion to yours without being idiots, nazis or sadists.

So, when it all boils down to it you are all JUST drawing your own moral "he was/wasn't a bad person and did/didn't deserve ... insert form of death here..." lines in different places. RESPECT eachother's right to hold different opinions and move on.

My personal view on this is as follows ( I';m giving it since it will prevent people making up their own fantasies as to why I intervened)...

1. My grandfather fought against the Germans ( in the Belgian Army and, later, in the resistance).

2. He got captured by the Gestapo with some explosive equipment during a resistance operation. He, fortunately, denied everything and got turned over to the Waffen-SS ( a bit better than the Gestapo).

3. He got put in a death camp and got rescued a short while before the Germans got round to bayonetting his entire barracks to death with pitchforks and bayonets ( to save on ammo). The German guards around when they got rescued didn't survive the prisoners' "response".

4. He always told me that the Wehrmacht troops he dealt with ( on the two occasions he was captured and held... once after the fall of Belgium, once after his capture with explosives in 1944) treated him very fairly, sharing rations and never beating or threatening him or his compatriots unduly. They often even went behind the back of the SS camp guards to give the prisoners extra rations etc. On one occasion he told me of a middle-aged German sergeant who gave him and his men extra rations and, when asked why, replied that his own son was a prisoner in Britain and he hoped that someone in Britain would show the same humanity for his son if his son were being as badly treated by the British equivalent to the SS. He viewed the Wehrmacht guys as "soldiers doing a job" AND he had far more contact with them than any of us here have ever had.

He viewed the Waffen-SS as fanatical soldiers who were much more liable to shoot POWs etc but he stated that he was always relatively well treated by them and was even told by one Waffen-SS officer that he was lucky they had managed to prise him out of the hands of the Gestapo since they'd have shot him even in the absence of evidence whereas this way he'd only end up in a concentration camp.

He viewed the Gestapo and SS camp guards as less than human and despised them for the rest of his life for many of the things they did to him and other prisoners.

My grandfather would have pitied those guys in that Panther in the same way he pitied the men in his platoon who got buried alive during shelling. He would have viewed them as soldiers who were doing their duty... as they saw it... for their nation and people and he would have felt it was a pity that they had to die so young and so horribly. I, personally, pity them in exactly the same way as I'd pity ANYONE ( be they German, Russian, American, British or Afghanistani) burning to death and dying horribly at such a young age.

He had FAR more contact with Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, gestapo and SS camp guards than anyone here has ever had and I think his judgements have some value here.

Still, the basic point is that you all have different opinions and having a big flamewar here is not going to change anyone's opinions and certainly isn't going to say much for your respective ability to tolerate free and open discussion and disagreement ( something I'm sure everyone here would like to imagine they respect).

[GreenGriffon]

Well said.....I agree 120%.

And thank you for sharing that story.

GG

[Fionn]

GG,

Thanks for that constructive post.

Now I believe the ball is in Cyrus' court. If he is willing to let bygones be bygones it should be possible to craft this into a constructive discussion... since it really has touched on some important issues.

FWIW I, personally, found the footage of the tank being hit quite interesting. I felt the editting etc was rather unfortunate but you could craft quite a ballistics discussion just around the point of impact etc.

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Fionn:

Now I believe the ball is in Cyrus' court. If he is willing to let bygones be bygones it should be possible to craft this into a constructive discussion.

He was never part of the discussion. He was only here to beg incessantly for a longer clip of that video. He was rude to me out of nowhere when I didn't have a response to his request, and in fact dismissed the REAL discussion here regarding the morality of suffering and death as a "pseudo-soap like drama discussion".

This conversation is better off without his participation.

GG

[Cyrus Logan]

I just edited a 2 page response to simply this.

You have excess time. I dont ... thus typos. Im not turning in a paper to be graded. Geez man isnt constent bickering a drain on your fatigue? It is for me , so here is my conclusion. If well typed proper grammer and spelling and using other peoples quotes to fill 50% of your response is your bag... thats great, i have had maybe 10 forum posts total, and when i do there filled with typos and puncuation because it takes me 20 seconds to type them. You can sit there and repeat , again, out of context how i have said "masterbation 10 times" (in reality twice... :confused: ) or again out of context about "droping the soap" 7 times (in reality once... :confused: ), but what is your point... i make one post return to you anaylizing my post your own post someone else post my post again and another of your own post , hah, bugger that.

off subject of the main subject, and returning to the main subject........cough, anyone know a link for that full pershing vs panther duel?

I have an excellent film footage of a very very well shot king tiger dueling a stalin 2 tank as well as several others including a field 88 (AT designated)picking off t-34 on a steppe 3 miles away (takes out 7 i believe, with well zoomed in shots) its really powerfull to hear it full force see the tracer and watch it slump slightly and meat its mark, you can even hear the disinct armor penetration ping, i also have a Tiger vs 2 sherman m4 vanilla it appears, footage, where the tiger engadges them at a bend turn of a bocage, knocking out the first one with one shot as it tunrs left onto the road after coming out from bocage cover, the second one fires 3 times all deflected (2nd defelcted shot hits the house the filmer is in and he falls back and sais "****" in german (dont worry he isnt hurt...) , then the panther sets it a ablaze in one shot striaght thru the turret hull (suprisingly armor penetration is very visible after, as long as the tank is not moving.

This isnt to feed any death voyeur onlookers, im looking at the tanks , the machines as the embodiement of both nations , not the people inside, its quite intersting and has very good filming and narration by a 3rd party (subtitles there in german) if your into the reading of guderian or mellinthin about armor and armor panzerkeil, techniques or hencefourth "into" armor then you should check it out, you must bewarned there are deffinent casualties in these films, no groteque burning bodies visible like in the panther footage ala page 1, but some people deffitly bit the dust, thus i will withold the links as to avoid being lynched by the conservative faction of the thread.

cheers

[ May 25, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Cyrus Logan ]

[Fionn]

GG,

No offence but when you post something like that you make it impossible for "Cyrus Logan" to "come in from the cold" as it were.

Remember the first step to truly isolating someone is to say that they have nothing constructive to add when they haven't been given a "last chance" as it were. Once you say that you ensure that they won't add anything constructive and ensure that what you have said will happen will come to pass.

So, again, Cyrus. If you drop the huge chip from your shoulder re: grammar etc etc and just post a link to this KT/IS2 duel and concentrate on moving off from THAT point with a clean slate I'm sure you'll be welcomed. If you continue to have a chip on your shoulder then I think it'll haunt you for the rest of your forum participation. My advice is to swallow it, post the URL and just be as constructive as possible in your future posts to this thread. You deserve a 2nd chance but if you take it while the chip is on ur shoulder ( and influencing what you type) you'll be the loser in the end.

GG, he deserves a second chance. We ALL make mistakes and say dumb things/get angry. Give him the opportunity to make ONE constructive post and then see what happens.

If he posts with a chip on his shoulder then you will be proven right. If he posts constructively then treat him as you would anyone who made a mistake but is now trying to do the right thing. I'm sure you've benefitted from 2nd chances in your lifetime. Maybe he could use one too right here and now.

Oh and FWIW if anyone thinks I'm all cuddly and love for fellow man. As far as I'm concerned if the next post isn't constructive and is done with a chip the size of Alaska on his shoulder then it isn't worth engaging with him. OTOH he DOES deserve a chance to start afresh in this thread and forum

Just my personal opinion.

[Holien]

Cyrus Logan

Could you e-mail me as your hotmail account is bouncing back my attempts to send a message to you.

Regards

H

(Ducks below a wall to avoid any incomming fire and crawls away......)

[GreenGriffon]

Fair enough Fionn.

I'll happily wait for Cyrus to prove that he isn't as vile and callous as he seems.

[ May 25, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: GreenGriffon ]

[Fionn]

Well callous isn't bad. I'm callous. I watched the movie of the Soviet soldier getting his throat cut and then had a conversation with someone about why the video was a PsyOps exercise ( had to do with the level of the knife cut vis a vis the vocal cords) and not a tactical blunder. Callous? Yup but sometimes emotions DO get in the way.

As I said before, it takes all sorts of people and just cause they're different doesn't mean they're "bad".

[ May 25, 2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Fionn ]

[flamingknives]

GG.

I feel I must clarify and pehaps apologise for the tone of the first section of ny previous post, esp. considering what I said later (i.e. re. chilling out). I was merely pointing out a certain amount of hipocrisy in some of your posts regarding other peoples reactions. However, I would still stick by my observation. Your responses to what appears to be a reasonable question by Cyrus, albeit crudely worded.

I in no way condemn your posting of the link, or attempt to imply that you would condone the other contents of the site in question, or that you knew of the edited nature of the clip.

In response to your questions regards the full clip, these can be found earlier in the thread, but I'll summarise for clarity.

The footage was shot in Cologne, by camera men travelling with the lead elements of an armoured column. The tank that made the 'kill shot' was an M26 Pershing.

No hard feelings?

[Fionn]

Thanks for that post flamingknives.

BTW does anyone know a link to the UNEDITED version of that film? I think it would have value to wargamers.

[GreenGriffon]

flamingknives,

Of course, no hard feelings. And thank you for your post.

As Norman Bates once said, "We all go a little mad sometime".

GG

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

Oh for chrissakes.

As for Gryphon's comment about the poor "young men struggling for their lives" in the burning Panther, yes war is certainly a horrible thing and any human suffering is without question even more terrible. But to put it mildly, I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....but maybe that's just me. So regrettably I can't say that I share your sympathy for them; I personally hope they suffered as they roasted in that tank. Please forgive my rather strong moral view on this topic.

GG

GG, you involuntarily started an interesting -and maybe important- discussion. The video is interesting, though it seems flawed.

Being German as well, you might understand, that I do not share your opinion about German soldiers. I must say, that this is the same type of stereotype simplification which let people in the World still believe that we are swines.

Nobody here does appreciate the cruelties and the repulsive crimes of the Nazi regime. But the equation German Soldier = Nazi Swine is simply and plain wrong. It was surely commonly used in WWII to make killing them easier.

But instead, the absolute huge part of the German soldiers were fine young men, all of them abused by a despotic regime, and some of them mislead by a deceiving propaganda. They had no choice in joining the Armed Forces, all of them were drafted.

In fact, many of the most powerful resistance movements against the regime originated in the Wehrmacht, as many leading officers were not in agreement with the war policy and the political doctrines of the Nazi regime - to mention only some of the most known: Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel, Chief of CounterIntelligence Admiral Canarius, Erwin von Witzleben, and Graf Stauffenberg.

Let me emphasize that today the German people is a thankful nation, which has deep respect and heartfelt appreciation for the highest sacrifice the Allied nations made to bring freedom and peace back to the heart of Europe. We are thankful for relieving us from the bane of the Nazism, and for the efforts the free world did not stop to make to protect good part of Germany from the Stalinism (I think here especially of Berlin), as well as its support in the process of reunion of our home country.

Now back to the center of the discussion - should such footage be published or broadcasted?

Yes, it should. Of course NOT in the way these ill ogrish people did. Why should it be published? Let me tell you a story to explain it.

A recently died good friend of my father was gunner of a PzIV in Russia 1943, being 19 years old and just married. His tank was hit by an unknown AT weapon in an ambush, and brewed up at instance. His commander and he were the only to escape from the inferno, and his commander died some days later. He himself had horrible burns in the face, on his arms, legs and his back. He stayed 3 years in hospitals, and underwent several surgeries. But as the medical possibilities in aesthetical sugery in WWII times were rather limited, the poor man had to live with a repulsively disfigured face for the rest of his life. Since these days he suffered from claustrophic attacks.

Why do I tell this? Because war is NOT like most of the Hollywood pictures. War is blood, horrible wounds, suffering. And nobody should ever forget this. The younger people like me have never seen war (and I thank God for it), but if we play war like in wargames, we should never forget which reality is behind it. Thus, we should show people how cruel war is, maybe they then refrain from starting one.

[ May 26, 2002, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Ozzy ]

[Tarquelne]

"Let me emphasize that today the German people is a thankful nation,"

I've read that wartime (WW2) German officer once said "The only thing worse than Germany loosing the war would be Germany winning the war." (Canaris?)

There's a (in)famous psychology experiment in which volunteers are asked to "punish" (via "electircal stiumulation") other experimental subjects who perform a task incorrectly. (These "other" subjects were fakes, of course - no one was actually being shocked.) Even with the wired-subject begging for the electricution to stop, even after the subject stopped responding, many (most? I don't remember) of the volunteers continued to administer higher and higher voltages at the experimenter's urging.

The horrible thing about Nazis is not that they monsters, the horrible thing is that they _weren't_.

[ May 26, 2002, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]