Gamey force selection

[Smiler]

So recently it seems that there's been a lot of talk about gamey forces and tactics. On the one hand, you have folks saying that if the game allows it, they wanna do it, which I can understand. On the other hand, lots of folks like to play battles that feel historic.

It seems to me that it could be possible to have a QB mode where not all units are available. Units that are historically rare have a chance (randomly determined) to be made unavailable. For example, if you're Allied in July '44, you'll have a hard time getting a hold of 76mm Shermans. And if it is available, you might only be able to get one.

I think this is nice for a few reasons. First, it forces you to choose units you don't normally choose. Second, it'll be legitimately exciting when you get your hands on an "exotic" piece of equipment. Third, people that like historic battles know in advance they'll probably get a reasonable force selection from their opponents, but with an occasional surprise thrown in. Finally, there's no guilt when you do get a chance to use something that was rare.

I think this has advantages over making more expensive based on rarity. Comments?

[Croda]

That idea is so good that I believe BTS is already working it into CMBB. They'll have an optional rarity system that takes into account what you're referring to. Check out the CMBB FAQ posted somewhere on this board, or just wait a few minutes and someone else will post more info.

[Yank]

Howdy all, heck I've never been in the military, but I was unaware that officers could pick and choose what they were put in command of. I was under the impression that you did the best you could with whatever your superiors decided to give you. So wouldn't it be considered gamey to pick your own forces to begin with? I'm not trying to start any arguments, just curious as to how everyone else feels about it.

[Croda]

In that regard, yes it is.

But, you've got to start somewhere.

Canned scenarios have you starting with a preset force. In a Quick Battle you need some way to start. From experience, the AI often choses a crazy mix when you let it chose the force automatically. I once got all schreks and MG42s and no infantry in a small QB. That was...bizarre.

So yes, but it's a necassary evil right now.

[jshandorf]

It's a friggen game! Bawhhh!

If you want historical play make sure you outline that from the get go with your opponent before you start!

And no, Croda, I am not done with that setup. It's a fricken hard map, plus I have been busy.

Jeff

[Michael Dorosh]

My God, Croda, did you get ejected from the MBT or something? You're quite active here on the Outerboard...and in such a non-disruptive and actually constructive way!

You thinking maybe once CMBB is out that all the Russian mail-order-brides-to-be will show a sudden interest in this forum? I have a friend who now swears by meeting Russian women on the internet; he spent a 3 week holiday on the French-Belgian WW I battlefields with a Russian babeski he met online...could this account for your sudden vivaciousness?

[Sledge59]

Originally posted by Yank:

...wouldn't it be considered gamey to pick your own forces to begin with?

Absolutely! Even if you go for maximum historical accuracy, the game is still an abstraction; it's all gamey. In spite of this, CM is on the cutting edge of accuracy and realism.

[Smiler]

Originally posted by jshandorf:

If you want historical play make sure you outline that from the get go with your opponent before you start!

Sure, but there's less variability in that. If the computer randomly chooses what's available, it may sometimes let you pick gear that normally would be considered gamey. Also, sometimes even common equipment could be made unavailable (due to local shortages).

This type of system allows rare and unique units to get on the board occasionally without anyway being accused of being gamey. Computer lets you choose a Super Pershing? Go for it! It won't happen often!

I'm glad to hear that CMBB might have something like this as an option.

[Croda]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

My God, Croda, did you get ejected from the MBT or something? You're quite active here on the Outerboard...and in such a non-disruptive and actually constructive way!

Every now and again I like to venture out into the OuterBoards™ to pseudo-grog/pseudo-historian side show. Apparently I wasn't dressed properly for the ball, as the Bald One™ saw fit to remove my latest thread to the Unread Forum™.

As for disruptive: someone has to let you statistical madmen know when you've gone overboard.

[Bruno Weiss]

Apparently I wasn't dressed properly for the ball, as the Bald One™ saw fit to remove my latest thread to the Unread Forum™.

Surely you know the International Forum Federation rates performances in part, on the creativity and style demonstrated by each verbal athelete as well as originality of dress.

[Smiler]

Originally posted by Croda:

That idea is so good that I believe BTS is already working it into CMBB. They'll have an optional rarity system that takes into account what you're referring to. Check out the CMBB FAQ posted somewhere on this board, or just wait a few minutes and someone else will post more info.

Ok, I just went and read the rarity thread at:

RarityThread

and overall I have to say that I'm pretty happy with the proposed system.

The thread also had the unrelated snippet about buying tank formations at a discount, which is a welcome addition, as is the fact that the computer will tend to buy units in formations rather than individually.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Smiler:

[snips]

It seems to me that it could be possible to have a QB mode where not all units are available. Units that are historically rare have a chance (randomly determined) to be made unavailable.

[snips]

I think this has advantages over making more expensive based on rarity. Comments?

I rather like the system used in Arty Conliffe's "Crossfire"; for points, you buy just (say) "tanks", and a die-roll determines the specific type of tank you get.

Something like this could I think be made to work pretty well in CM. You would buy a force as, say, 2 platoons of infantry, 4 support weapons, 2 ATk guns, an arty spotter and 3 medium tanks. "Medium tanks" might mean any of the types CM supports, weighted for rarity value, and all 3 would be of the same type (apart from having a Firefly every 3rd or 4th tank for the Brits, and a 75/76 gun mix for the USA). The problem with this, of course, would be that there would be a pretty strong element of luck in the forces you actually got -- the same points spent on 5 medium tanks might get you 5 Pz IVs or 5 Panthers, which ain't quite the same thing. Such a selection system could also enforce some unit compatibility rules -- you should never find Challengers in a Sherman squadron, for example, and the infantry accompanying Panzers should normally be Panzergrenadiers. One might also steal the WRG idea of "imbalance costs", whereby things cost extra if you try to buy an excessive proportion of them.

All the best,

John.