DEF BUNGIS Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 I was wondering what the correct elevation level of the 4 large buildings set next to the bridge in the Arnhem operations is supposed to be. In your operations scenario, those buildings top floors are just shy of being eye level with the bridge that runs into Arnhem. So, a PIAT team placed on the top floor would actually be firing UP at vehicles that drive across the bridge. My question is, I remember clearly from the movie "A bridge too far" that British PIAT teams fired out of those windows DOWN on vehicles moving across the bridge. The top floor of at least one of those buildings overlooked the bridge. Not testing your historical accuracy here cause I dont have a clue what the REAL Arnhem bridge looks like. But I was wondering which one of the elevations is depicted correctly, the one in your operations, or the movie A bridge too far. Thanks. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 Just a side note; I do know that the bridge used in the movie "A Bridge Too Far" was not actually Arnhem bridge, but another similar one in Holland. I don't know about the actual building heights. Great question, though. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 There are many, many problems to overcome in representing the Arnhem bridge with the map editor. They relate to the elevations. Getting those to match without buildings being lopsided was very hard to do. Actually I could write paragraphs on the tricks I had to pull to get all this even. I would be tempted to say from photos I've seen that they were probably looking down on the bridge from at least some of the buildings. The exact distance of the buildings, their precise is all info that I did not have. I used the photos I found of the area as a general guide to making the map. It is one that I would not want to do again Only one who has tinkered with elevations, bridges, buildings and roads, keeping them level (and visible - some buildings won't show if the terrain is lowered from one square to another) will know whereof I speak. It was by far the hardest map I have ever done in a game. But I do appreciate the comments. That is about all I can tell you, Gaff. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 07-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 I have a book at home that IIRC has pic's from the war of Arnhem during / after the battle. Send me an email at mikester@attglobal.net to remind me so I don't forget and I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted July 8, 2000 Author Share Posted July 8, 2000 WB: I have only tinkered with the map editior. I noticed that the terrain elevation is the most frustrating to get correctly, just because you have to jump back and forth from the 3D view. And as you mentioned, sliding buildings and so forth. Any hoot, it was a fun operation to play and I think your doing great things for CM and the people who enjoy playing the historically accurate scenarios. I hope you keep it up. Mikester: That would be great if you could, just as a refference, let us know what you find out from those pictures of Arnhem. Thanks. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 Looking at photos in Robert Kershaw's IT NEVER SNOWS IN SEPTEMBER, p. 132, it looks like there are four blocks of buildings running alongside the road bridge just after it crosses the river (and just before it crosses a major underpasses and meets a hill, where the bridge's elevation pilings are no longer necessary). Of those four blocks, the three closest to the river appear to be at or even below the level of the bridge; the fourth block has peaked roofs that are slightly higher than the bridge. It really is an elevated bridge! If I were at home, I'd boot up CM and compare the scenario map to these photos. I'll remember to do it this weekend. Wild Bill no doubt had access to these or similar photos in designing the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 I've been there recently (of course forgot my camera), and most of the original buildings from there are gone (gosh, I wonder why? ) but the bridge IS very high and I can't imagine that the buildings would have originally been much higher than the bridge. Most of the houses around the bridge are 4 levels or so, and you'd need - hm - seven or more to be actually above the bridge. (going from memory here) So I'd assume that the movie is ... well, a movie... ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 Thanks DB. I would not want to tackle one like that again anytime soon. Kind of a humorous incident. During testing of the game, I had just spent three days on that map. Steve and Charles had written that they were going to change the bridges, with some differences in elevation and wanted a vote on it. Well, I am not the best at voting about things. I didn't vote. I learned a hard lesson! . When the next beta update came out, I looked at my bridges. It was a disaster! The whole center section of the map I had to do over. Only the outer perimeter escaped. As you mention, terrain often affects adjacent terrain, so in changing, it had a domino effect, catastrophic, on my work. I'll vote next time....twice! ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted July 8, 2000 Author Share Posted July 8, 2000 So indeed the Wild Bill scenario correctly depicts the elevation of those buildings. Well, the movie was still awsome, but like Moon said, "it's just a movie". I should have known better. I am going to have to drag out my books and see if I can find a picutre of that area myself. I must see for myself. You know, one of those grognad things. (G-thing) ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted July 9, 2000 Author Share Posted July 9, 2000 I got a good picture of the Arnhem bridge in my Time-Life History of WWII book. It's an overhead shot of the bridge, but clearly you can see that the bridge is taller than the buildings. There is even a building directly under the bridge. I was really suprised just how big that bridge was. So for the record, the CM Arnhem operations scenario shows true historical terrain of the area. A very good job of it IMO. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Thanks DB. I've been trying to find those pictures I used originally. Glad you found 'em. Probably the same ones. I appreciate the vote of confidence here. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mikester: I have a book at home that IIRC has pic's from the war of Arnhem during / after the battle. Send me an email at mikester@attglobal.net to remind me so I don't forget and I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight. Mikester out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Mikester, I started modeling the map of Arnhem based on the actual Allied map they sell at the Oosterbreek Airborne Museum. Could you report back once you've checked your book? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I have spent some time on Bills map. Historically, the Brit Paras where defintiely able to fire down on the bridge from the upper levels and roofs of the buildings. Indeed, this is possible on Bills map. Graebners recon company was wiped out precisely because the Brit Paras were able to fire down into the halftracks full of SS infantry. Check the LOS on Bills map. Units have lines of fire onto the bridge from the upper levels of the buildings along the map. Bill, I am certain you are busy, but would you be interested in taking a look at my map? The main changes I made were to add the factory type complex to the east that the Paras used to hold off for a while, and some minor changes to the bridge ramp area. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 By all means, Jeff. I'd love to take a look. Also read my post in the other Arnhem thread about how to have attacks both north and south of the river. I don't know that it would work but it might. Either way, it would be a heck of an interesting fight, not knowing if the enemy was going to hit you north or south of the bridge. Send it to: billw@thegamers.net Once I get it, I'll send you a copy of this mean scenario to be posted soon and let you have an advance shot. Jeff Raider was very challenged by it. Ask him ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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