Assaulting buildings

[Joques]

Hi, I'm still digesting some of the lessons learned during my battle to take Cherbourg. One of the areas where CMBO differs greatly from ASL is in assaulting buildings with infantry. In ASL, if you can only advance into a bulding, you are on equal footing with the defending unit in the ensuing close combat, all other factors being equal (firepower/concealment/exhaustion/stealth/etc). Not so in CMBO, it seems.

It definitely seems as if defending units have an edge when you enter a building. What I tried to do was to issue the following order: Fast move adjacent to the building, then switch to sneak to get inside. It may be superstition on my part, but it seemed to me that if my units Snuck into the building they stood a greater chance of making it through Close Combat.

What say the gurus? Are there move orders that improve your odds in CC? (I mean apart from obvious stuff like suppressing defenders, smoke, entering from behind the defenders, etc...)

[Slappy]

No use sneaking. The defenders can see you the whole time. I would fast move all the way in (or just move).

You are actually correct that, all things the same, you are on equal footing with the defender, the problems are these:

1. Defender dosen't have to move (no fatigue)

2. Defender sees you first (easier to see out of a building than in)

3. Defender gets off the first shot (see 2)

4. You are take casualties and / or are suppressed (see 3)

5. Defender gets off the next shot (see 4)

Lather, rinse, repeat...

The answer is what you have proposed. Suppress, smoke etc. as much as possible. Also, arrive from as short a distance as possible. You are actually more vulnerable in the street than in the building. Whenever possible, arrive with multiple squads. 2-3 on 1 really helps. The defender cannot effectively suppress all of them in CMBO.

In CMBB, I'd be happy to get my men in the building, much less stay alive while there.

[ October 24, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Slappy ]

[Robohn]

Not very popular with civilians, but I prefer to demolish buildings rather than storm them with troops. Satchel charges from 30m or closer work, and 75mm+ tank guns usually do the trick.

[Spacewrangler]

how do you use satchel charges? Is that CMBB only?

[Silvio Manuel]

Yup...CMBB only- from 30m and in it shows "use explosives" when you do area fire. for CMBO, you would have to target a real unit, and hope that your Engineers toss the demo charges.

[86smopuim]

For CMBO only:

fast move up to the outside of the building, a meter or 2 out, then sneak the rest.

Preferably while have the two other squads in your 'toon laying suppressive fire on the inhabitants.

For Either Game:

I do much prefer the "Blow the cr@p out of it with HE" method. Much safer.

[ October 25, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[PiggDogg]

Guys,

In many (quite a few) CMBO games, I have never been thrown out of a 'large' heavy building by infantry assault when I defended the building with a full platoon. However, I have abandonded or have been forced out of large heavy buildings by prfimarily HE plus infantry fire.

In fact, I don't remember taking a fully defended (by a full platoon) large heavy building with only infantry.

I would bet that the following recommendations also apply to CMBB even though I have not tested the tactic enough in CMBB.

First way to take a large heavy building, as Robohn stated, is to level it with HE, most commonly by direct 75 to 105 HE. Indirect HE (even the wonderful Ami 155s) is a bit too random to be sure to take out a particular large heavy building.

The only other way to take such a building is to surpress the daylights out of the guys defending it and the enemy supporting. This will take a least 2 or 3 or more to 1 odds. Certainly, some direct HE will help. Then assault the building with a platoon or two.

Cheers, Richard

[Ron]

For CMBO there are a couple approaches if you discount the "flatten everything in site" method which would be ideal but obviously isn't always possible.

I would always try and get 2-3 to 1 on the defender in a building. You will need to selectively choose your assault location and/or protect the approach with smoke to minimize flanking fire. Once committed to going in I would use a combination of Fast and Move for your troops, never Sneak as you want to GET to the building not be stopped just before it by fire. My preferred method is to have one squad Fast move followed by two squads with the Move order, that way suppressive fire is provided on the 'way in' against the defenders that reveal themselves. Realize that troops using Fast move will take more casualties, many times much more.

In combination to the above, I like to have, if possible, an AFV giving covering fire in support. You can do this quickly and at the same time as the assault without wasting ammo by area firing into the building. Once your troops get close the AFV will cease its main gun area fire, hopefully suppressing the defender and then switching to it in the process.

Another alternative is to use HTs to run the assaulting troops up to the target building. That way your troops are protected going in and the HTs will provide suppressive fire.

I have had success with many methods, just have to make use of the assets you have. You will take casualties however no matter what you do unless as noted above you flatten everything beforehand. Hope that helps.

Ron

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Ron:

In combination to the above, I like to have, if possible, an AFV giving covering fire in support. You can do this quickly and at the same time as the assault without wasting ammo by area firing into the building. Once your troops get close the AFV will cease its main gun area fire, hopefully suppressing the defender and then switching to it in the process.

Ron

Interesting!

Is it true that an AFV will stop its area fire on a building when some of your own troops run in? I've tended to assume the contrary--that it will keep firing, and thus haven't tried this technique. Does anyone know for sure? Has anyone tested it? Is the answer consistent for both CMBO and BB?

Ron, this may just be my ignorance and I'm sorry to doubt you. Just don't want to get my guys killed by my own fire w/o being sure.

[CombinedArms]

Well, I decided to run my own quick test (in CMBB), and it's true! The tank stops firing area fire when friendly troops enter the building. My test was with a Stug III area firing on a large heavy building occupied by a Russian Maxim MG (out of LOS). When two Axis squads entered the building, the Stug's main gun stopped firing (though it continued to fire it's MG). I'm guessing this would hold true in general, and it is good to know.

I may run a CMBO test, just to be sure, in which case I'll report the results.

[ October 25, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[PiggDogg]

CombArms,

Thanks for running the test. We look forward to your upcoming test.

Cheers, Richard

[Ron]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Well, I decided to run my own quick test (in CMBB), and it's true! The tank stops firing area fire when friendly troops enter the building. My test was with a Stug III area firing on a large heavy building occupied by a Russian Maxim MG (out of LOS). When two Axis squads entered the building, the Stug's main gun stopped firing (though it continued to fire it's MG). I'm guessing this would hold true in general, and it is good to know.

I may run a CMBO test, just to be sure, in which case I'll report the results.

The same holds true for CMBO. I have used that more times than I can remember and as you noted it is useful not just for assaulting buildings, but in general.

Ron

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Ron:

[

The same holds true for CMBO. I have used that more times than I can remember and as you noted it is useful not just for assaulting buildings, but in general.

Ron[/QB]

[xerxes]

A word of warning about charging into your own fire zones in CMBB.

The firing unit doesn't ALWAYS stop firing. I found this out the hard way launching a counterattack with my mg suppressing. I ran right ot the target zone and my mg continued to blaze away sending my guys to the ground.

I've also heard reports of FTs flaming their own guys.

Just a note of caution before someone gets hurt.

[Robohn]

Oh, I forgot to mention how quickly a flamethrower can empty out those large, heavy buildings as well. The problem is getting a flame thrower in range, and living long enough to fire it off.

My buddy used to hit me with flame HTs, until I got wise to his tactics and laid traps for em.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by xerxes:

A word of warning about charging into your own fire zones in CMBB.

The firing unit doesn't ALWAYS stop firing. I found this out the hard way launching a counterattack with my mg suppressing. I ran right ot the target zone and my mg continued to blaze away sending my guys to the ground.

I've also heard reports of FTs flaming their own guys.

Just a note of caution before someone gets hurt.

Note that in my Stug test, just the main gun stopped firing. The MG did continue to fire--so, consistent with your point, I'm guessing this only affects guns, not MGs. Also, FTs will sometimes miss their targets and hit an adjacent squad of yours....but I definitely wouldn't flame a building I was intending to enter with my own units!

:eek:

[Eric Alkema]

Originally posted by Joques:

Fast move adjacent to the building, then switch to sneak to get inside.

I think you have the right idea. If you don't know where in the building the defenders are, you want to sneak in order to:

1)Maximize spotting.

2)Make sure that you stop before you trip over them.

If you do know where the defenders are, Move so you can go in with guns blazing.