Question about Finnish Pioneers

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Tero,

One more consideration: IMO there should not be conscript or green Pioneers, only regular or better. Even when playing with the lowest troop quality setting the Pioneers should be regular (or better). This because they are skilled specialists. Sometimes even contruction professionals trained in the craft even before they enter the service.

There is no way to do this. Experience ranges can only be determined by force type (i.e. Infantry, Mechanized, etc.). And I also think this isn't something we would do even if we could. Looking at the accounts of the Winter War it would appear that at one point 1/2 of all Pioneers were untrained. In theory you are correct, of course, but the reality of mobilization and losses means that things are not always going to be as they are planned for.

Half squads, sounds reasonable. Inherent limitations...hmmmm... they are skilled specialists, having them hit with default, built in morale reduction and other related penalties defeats the purpose and fucntions of the Pioneers in combat. I'd say independent HMG squads would make more appropriate refrence points.

Actually, that is what I meant I'm aiming for a 3 man team, which is 1/3 of a Squad. They would be exempt from morale penalties. Just waiting to hear back from Charles if this is OK. I see no reason why it won't be.

Could you make the Pioneer stuff available for regular infantry in the editor ?

Not without making it available for Quick Battle purchase (player or CM unit choosing). But if we can tweak their Rarity seperate from all other units (this should be possible to do) then we can make them too expensive to purchase with Rarity on. That is what my current plan is.

Steve

[Tero]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Looking at the accounts of the Winter War it would appear that at one point 1/2 of all Pioneers were untrained.

The URL went dead on me. Seems Sami has had some problems recently with the index page or something.

IIRC they were untrained in the pioneer business but not totally untrained as military personel. By 1941 the situation changed and improved markedly when talking about the organization of the pioneeri korps.

In theory you are correct, of course, but the reality of mobilization and losses means that things are not always going to be as they are planned for.

True. But I would like to think they would not give a high power demolition charge to a man fresh out of boot or fresh of civvies and 10 years since he has fired a rifle and get him going yonder to KO that pesky bunker. In such a case I would think the infantry commander would take the charge off his hands and give the task to a more seasoned regular infantry soldier. Or put him in mine clearing duty without any training in proper mine clearing techniques. I could imagine that was the case in the Red Army but not the Finnish army.

Actually, that is what I meant I'm aiming for a 3 man team, which is 1/3 of a Squad. They would be exempt from morale penalties. Just waiting to hear back from Charles if this is OK. I see no reason why it won't be.

OK.

Would a pioneer "platoon" be a HQ unit and three or four 3 man teams ?

Not without making it available for Quick Battle purchase (player or CM unit choosing). But if we can tweak their Rarity seperate from all other units (this should be possible to do) then we can make them too expensive to purchase with Rarity on. That is what my current plan is.

You mean the ordnance, not the units as such ? The pioneer ordnance is (in theory) available for any infantry unit even in QB but because of rarity options the infantry unit getting a demolition charge would be exorbitantly and prohibitively priced.

[Jarmo]

Awesome gun in my opinion but how practical was it in real life?

I'd like to think the addition of SMG wouldn't make the flametrower (significantly) more cumbersome, but would possibly come in handy at times.

[Nabla]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Awesome gun in my opinion but how practical was it in real life?

I'd like to think the addition of SMG wouldn't make the flametrower (significantly) more cumbersome, but would possibly come in handy at times.</font>

[Battlefront.com]

Tero,

Would a pioneer "platoon" be a HQ unit and three or four 3 man teams ?

No. The Pioneer "Team" would be just like a HMG in that it would be under the command of any Platoon or higher HQ. Alternatively, they can operate independently without too much hardship.

You mean the ordnance, not the units as such ?

No, I mean the formations themselves. In other words, with Rarity on it will be much more expensive to purchase a Pioneer Company than an Infantry Company. What they are armed with is totally irrelevant to formation Rarity. If the entire Finnish Army had a single Company armed with sticks and stones, it should be many times more expensive than the most common Infantry Company armed with real weapons. The point of Rarity, when dealing with formations, is to penalize the less common UNITS. With Teams/Vehicles/Armor/Artillery/Fortifications Rarity obviously applies to the weapons themselves since the crews are an inherent part of it and are, for the intents and purposes of Rarity, irrelevant.

Steve

[jKMkIII]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

Hmm.. what in earth happened to tss?

He used to have all the info about things.

Probably just something to do with exam season and other things taking up time. At least yesterday he looked totally normal so nothing serious..

[Viimeinen Talvi]

I found this from official page of finnish army. It might not help much, but who cares. And here it goes. (Someone, please translate it)

Kuitenkin pioneereilla oli elintärkeä rooli jo talvi- ja jatkosodassa ,vaikka heitä oli vain noin viisi prosenttia kaikista joukoista.

Sodissa pioneereja käytettiin paitsi erikoiskoulutuksensa mukaisiin tehtäviin myös tavallisena jalkaväkenä. Iskuosastotehtävissä toimineiden jääkäripioneerien aseistukseen kuului muun muassa liekinheittimiä.

[Tuomas]

Kuitenkin pioneereilla oli elintärkeä rooli jo talvi- ja jatkosodassa ,vaikka heitä oli vain noin viisi prosenttia kaikista joukoista.

Sodissa pioneereja käytettiin paitsi erikoiskoulutuksensa mukaisiin tehtäviin myös tavallisena jalkaväkenä. Iskuosastotehtävissä toimineiden jääkäripioneerien aseistukseen kuului muun muassa liekinheittimiä.

In any case pioneers had a vital role in both in Winter and in Continuation War, although they did consist only about five percent of all forces.

In the wars pioneers were used not only for specialist duties but also as regular infrantry. In strike detachment duties jägerpioneers weapondry included for example such things as flamethrowers.

------

I might have gotten little too poetic in the end. Anyway the quote did only say that they were used in front lines, but to what extent and since when? The quote also suggests that pioneers were not used as whole squads but rather as teams in strike detatchements. Though the quote doesn't deny this possibility.

-TNT-

[illo]

This is not about pioneers, but will regular infantry have assault teams?

Following is from Sami Korhonen's site

Then, powerful teams were used, armed with smg's, Mauser pistols (very popular as they were easy to handle) , hand grenades, smoke grenades and 3 - 5 kg satchel charges. These teams infiltrated the Soviet positions under the cover of darkness, and when among them, a surprise attack was launched. The Soviet positions were destroyed one by one without any pause and giving the confused defenders no time to regroup. This method proved out to be amazingly economical in terms of losses.

For comparison, when the "Mylly" strongpoint in West-Lemetti was destroyed in the final attack, the Finnish assault teams lost a total of only 3 men, while the defenders lost several hundred. The total body count inside "Mylly" was 367 Soviet dead

[ May 02, 2002, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[GriffinCheng+]

Originally posted by Kekk1:

Hey, how about this? Will it make into the game?

A Finnish pioneer with the Suomi SMG with a flamethrower attached to it.

OT: Where is this pic taken? TIA.

[Jantteri]

Originally posted by GriffinCheng+:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kekk1:

Hey, how about this? Will it make into the game?

A Finnish pioneer with the Suomi SMG with a flamethrower attached to it.

OT: Where is this pic taken? TIA.</font>

[Jager]

tts is ok. I saw him on friday. I know his modem broke on him some time ago and his waiting for cable. I don't know if thats the reason for his silence.

I'll ask him if he'd care to comment the issue.