Taking out AT Pillboxes

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joeski:

Yep a 75mm pillbox. Bad buy probally. Hindsight is 20/20. When the churchill appeared my opponent just sat there. I asked him what he was doing and he said that thing can't hurt my front armor but if I reverse to get away I'm going to have to turn at some point. Bad part was I snuck a Hetzer over to get a side shot on the church and the hetzer got popped too. That was a bad turn for me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn. That is a bad turn. I think you did do the right thing, though (even though it did not work out).

It does bring up an interesting point, though.

Pillboxes have a way of capturing an opponents attention the way few other units do (KT is an obvious exception) People tend to focus on them and seem to think of them as Step 1 in tackling a defense.

This is not exactly surprising -- they do pack a punch, are resistant to artillery and will severely piss in the soup if ignored.

So you can expect your opponent to devote some resources to taking them out, early in the scenario, which means that MAYBE, to a certain extent, his actions will be predictable.

That gives you an advantage, which someone here already mentioned -- if you can set up your forces so that someone maneuvering to attack a pillbox becomes vulnerable to another, hidden threat, you can really mess them up.

This is not the same as using a pillbox as bait -- rather the desired goal is to have many dead enemies and keep both the pillbox and the hidden supporting positions intact.

This is different from the issue I already pontificated on above, which is how you might defend a pillbox from being outflanked...

[tenfive2]

Played a tcp/ip QB the other day and my opponent had 2 very well placed machine gun/pillboxes. Lot's of open ground.

I had British infantry and no tanks. Not enough smoke to bother him. Finally took 1 out with a piat (shot #6 of 6 !). I poured MG fire into both pillboxes the entire game and never bothered him.

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: tenfive2 ]

[MoatnGator]

I took out a concrete AT gun bunker with 105mm indirect rounds. It only took two turns worth. Maybe I just got lucky, but I am going to try again tonight.

I'll keep you posted.

[tecumseh]

Interesting old thread. I cannot believe no one pointed out this:

Each pillbox has two cone-shaped areas on either side that it cannot target, but from which it's front slit can still be targeted by the enemy. To KO a pillbox, just put a tank there. After a few shots, no more pillbox.

[Sergeant Saunders]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumseh:

Interesting old thread. I cannot believe no one pointed out this:

Each pillbox has two cone-shaped areas on either side that it cannot target, but from which it's front slit can still be targeted by the enemy. To KO a pillbox, just put a tank there. After a few shots, no more pillbox.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am working on a scenario that has 12 mixed MG, 75 & 88mm bunkers. There are NO dead zones!!

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

Well, I am working on a scenario that has 12 mixed MG, 75 & 88mm bunkers. There are NO dead zones!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey sarge, when you're finished can you send it to me? It will be a real challenge to make that one playable...i'd like to see how you do it!

thanks

tecumseh@ihug.co.nz

[Sergeant Saunders]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumseh:

Hey sarge, when you're finished can you send it to me? It will be a real challenge to make that one playable...i'd like to see how you do it!

thanks

tecumseh@ihug.co.nz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Playable" so far it is all or nothing. Ether the bunkers eat the allies for breakfast or the other way around.

:confused:

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

"Playable" so far it is all or nothing. Ether the bunkers eat the allies for breakfast or the other way around.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When the Allies eat the bunkers for breakfast, how do most of the bunkers get killed? Are they flanked or is it front penetrations?

just curious...

[Stalin's Organ]

I'm playing "Crodaberg" - where the Jerries get a few 88mm pillboxes and the Yanks get lots'a'shermans - lost a couple of Shermans - took out all visible pillboxes adn a couple of AT guns that turn out to be Pak44s in 1 turn!

If you can get simultaneous shots with a dozen tanks (or any shell firing gun at all really) you'll be surprised how easy pillboxes are to take out!

[Sergeant Saunders]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumseh:

When the Allies eat the bunkers for breakfast, how do most of the bunkers get killed? Are they flanked or is it front penetrations?

just curious...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, they can't really flank, it has to be frontal penetrations. The most effective tool is Churchill-Croc, 4-5 will do it every time. It takes an average of 25-30 Shermans. 10-12 Jumbos work. So far 3 infantry Battalions have been unsuccessfull.

Question: Test I just ran, 3 Glider Battalions. They lost over 1200 casualties (560 KIA). The looking at the bunkers KIA reports NONE of them showed any enemy kills????

:confused:

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

Question: Test I just ran, 3 Glider Battalions. They lost over 1200 casualties (560 KIA). The looking at the bunkers KIA reports NONE of them showed any enemy kills????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answer: Sarge, you are insane

[Sergeant Saunders]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumseh:

Answer: Sarge, you are insane <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! Best compliment I've gotten lately.

Oh, one other detail on this setup. It is night & raining, so LOS is only 100 meters max.

You know what 12-15 HMGs can do at 100 meters? while you are tangled in barbwire?

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Sergeant Saunders ]

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

You know what 12-15 HMGs can do at 100 meters? while you are tangled in barbwire?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

does it look like this?

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Sergeant Saunders]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumseh:

does it look like this?

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: tecumseh ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... Butt, I don't get it?

[tecumseh]

nevermind

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

[QB]

You know what 12-15 HMGs can do at 100 meters? while you are tangled in barbwire?

Hmmm. I know what 3 Vickers can do at 400m while my enemy is in Wire. 12-15 HMGS? You sadist! You must be a worthy opponent...since you are so de-sensitized to your own (pixelated) troops' slaughter.

[Webs]

Old thread, new question....

I have flanked a wooden bunker anbd a concrete pillbox with a rifle platoon and a bazooka - the troops are about 150 meters away with only a German mortar team to stop them. I'd like to save the bazooka to deal with AFVs.

Can plain old infantry take out bunkers/pillboxes? Just target the constructions?

[Silvio Manuel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Webs:

Old thread, new question....

I have flanked a wooden bunker anbd a concrete pillbox with a rifle platoon and a bazooka - the troops are about 150 meters away with only a German mortar team to stop them. I'd like to save the bazooka to deal with AFVs.

Can plain old infantry take out bunkers/pillboxes? Just target the constructions?<hr></blockquote>

They sure can. I had a vet. British Airborne Team (*not* squad) stumble upon a Pillbox MG at 10 meters (!!!! the horror). All in the same movie, the squad spotted it, kept walking at it to my horror (as per my FOW'd orders), and lobbed a grenade in the slit, causing the crew to abandon immediately (1 grenade = 1 dead mg pillbox, woo-hoo!).

That the Pillbox crew put up a decent fight afterwards, that's another story... ;>

Now in your situation...normal Brit rifles squads don't have Rifle Grenades or any demo-toys, IIRC. So you'll prolly have to close to, oh dunno 40m, 20m whatever grenade range is. Hopefully you have some smoke to cover them from MG/rifle fire. You may well be able to get under that German mortar's minimum range if you hustle.

I can't recall what your forces were...but if you have AFVs use their smoke if you don't have off-map smoke.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]</p>

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Webs:

Can plain old infantry take out bunkers/pillboxes?

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, hand grenades are fine. Interestingly, I usually see HQs taking out pillboxes, not squads.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Just target the constructions?<hr></blockquote>

No need to, they are high-priority targets, so unless someone really threatens them, they'll target it by themself. On the contracy, you may get the assaulter killed by whoever would become target without target order, and the bunker will not run away.

[Webs]

As fa as amoking with AFVs, I do have two Shermans that are smoking quite nicely, but it's black smoke and stationary right over them.

The reason my platoon could get so close was smoke, from a friendly 81-mm mortar. The German mortar won't be a problem as it is also still in the smoke and seems to have no idea I'm so close (already within 100 m).

One last deatil - do I have to move the infantry in front of the slit to take it out?

[xerxes]

Front of the slit!!! OMG no! Take the pillbox from the side or rear. It might take a turn or two but your squad will automatically target and get the box.

-marc

Front of slit, sheesh, that's where the GUNS are.

(just kidding, until you perform your first pillboxectomy it really isn't clear how this all works)

[gredeker]

I had success recently in firing at the side of a 75mm pillbox with a Sherman 75. After lobbing ten shells with no effect, the square caught on fire, forcing the crew to abandon the pillbox!

I wouldn't count on this technique, though.

[Slappy]

For taking out an isolated bunker (wood or concrete) with infantry, just park them in the square behind the box and wait. Assuming a still have a full platoon, I usually put out two of the squads to stand guard and target the rear of the bunker with the third squad and HQ. AT weapons or not, the crew usually bails out within two minutes to be cut down by the platoon. In fact, I prefer to do the targeting with squads that have grenades only. They do the job just fine and you don't waste those weapons on the box.

Now here's the problem with this. I never buy a pillbox or bunker on its own. Generally, I consider the bunker, 1-2 MGs, an AT weapon or light AT gun, and a TRP or wire/AP mines as part of a bunker 'unit'. You put the bunker out front and dig the MGs and AT in ~100m behind. The optimal placement is designed so that the cover can see the back of the bunker, but not be seen from in front. You essentially use the terrain that the bunker is in to create a mini reverse slope defense for that area of the field. MGs sweep any infantry attempting to do the above, ATs pop any armor that tries to flank, and the fortifications and TRP are just a bonus. Generally, this is not favored, but I prefer this bunker in front of the MLR strategy.

If you suspect that this is what you are up against, come with a much larger combined arms force to suppress the support elements or you are toast.

[Caesar]

I have found that using fast lightly armed/armoured vehicles the most effective antidote for Pill boxes of all types. As mentioned above a couple of them widely spaced apart and moving after every shot preferably moving to hull down positions is best. Their high speeds and high rates of fire seem to take out the pillbox most often.

Another good trick is having a tank moving into and out of cover. It causes the gun to keep retargeting and never getting a shot off. The tank seems to be worth more than say a Daimler or Stuart tank and so it can often sit hull down for an entire turn blasting away without being hit.

[BsChoy]

Will any arty ie 8 inch, 240mm, or 14 inch guns take pillboxes out?? I ner run into pillboxes much??