251/1 vs M3/A1

[newlife]

Hi,

I'm almost positive this has been discussed before, but after several attempts with the search, I came up blank. If someone finds a prevoius disccusion, please point it out.

That said, why in the world does the 251/1 at 51pts cost 5 pts more than the M3/A1 (which is 46pts)? The only thing I see going for it are a few extra mms or armor on the front. Other than that, the M3/A1 has more firepower with the .50 cal and is significantly faster (very important for lightly armored vehicles) The M3/A1 can shoot all day without running out of ammo, while the 251/1 just doesn't carry all that much (not that either lives long enough to use a full load). The armor on the 251/1 just doesn't make up for the .50 on the M3/A1. The difference is so small that most AT threats will readily punch through either HTs armor.

What gives?

Pete

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

251/1 can carry more soldiers than a M3A1

[newlife]

Maybe in real life, but in the game I can load a 12 man american rifle squad plus bazooka team. What more do you need? The german HT appears to have the same capacity (although I haven't tried ALL possible combinations of squads and teams).

Pete

[Stoffel]

251/1 can load the 11 men Pzr grenadier pionier squad with flamethrower or schreck team.

So basically the same loadout.

[Silvio Manuel]

Besides the better speed and .50cal firepower, the M3A1 has a 3-man crew instead of the 251/1's 2-man crew. So you can take a casualty (and maybe button-up too?) and still fire. Also, the 2 MGs on the M3A1 are both flexible- quite a bit more useful than the 1 Forward MG on its German counterpart.

[Redwolf]

The german halftrack has much better front armor, more than twice as tick and angled.

In addition, lower sihuette and I think much better going on difficult ground.

Last not least, it looks much cooler.

I think it is a bug that the .50cal doesn't have seperate ammunition, if it had 16 or 24 for the .50cal, like the Shermans have, things would even out quite a bit. In any case, as it is the .50cal at four points is a little underpriced considering it has up to 250 ammo.

I also wonder why the M3 can fire the .30cal when buttoned. Where exactly is the .30cal mounted?

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The german halftrack has much better front armor, more than twice as tick and angled.

In addition, lower sihuette and I think much better going on difficult ground.

Last not least, it looks much cooler.

I think it is a bug that the .50cal doesn't have seperate ammunition, if it had 16 or 24 for the .50cal, like the Shermans have, things would even out quite a bit. In any case, as it is the .50cal at four points is a little underpriced considering it has up to 250 ammo.

I also wonder why the M3 can fire the .30cal when buttoned. Where exactly is the .30cal mounted?

True, the Germans HTs (esp. the 251's) can take .50cal fire from about 500m and out if you have a frontal aspect.

The silhouette is indeed lower (73 for 251/1, 59 for 250/1 vs. about 93 for M3s).

I like that while the M3 w/ only .30cal has 150 ammo, but the M3A1 has .30 an .50 and 250 ammo.

Neither the M3 or M3A1 HT, nor the M3A1 Scout Car can fire any MGs while buttoned (just checked).

[Caesar]

Try using both in the wet/snow conditions. In my experience so far, you might as well just dig a hole and bury the M3/A1. I've lost 4 in a single battle to bogging and becoming imobilised :mad: . So far, the German HTs seem to be much less prone.

[Silvio Manuel]

This is OT but...I was shocked to have a White Scout Car and a Humber go off-road (open ground) and get immobilized during a rain/wet battle. I has assumed that vehicles that don't have a ground pressure rating would not suffer from that.

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by newlife:

Maybe in real life, but in the game I can load a 12 man american rifle squad plus bazooka team. What more do you need? The german HT appears to have the same capacity (although I haven't tried ALL possible combinations of squads and teams).

Pete

When setting up a battle in the scenario editor, you can load a squad and a zook into an M3A1. However, once they disembark during the game, the squad can't go back into the halftrack. This is because in early versions of CM, M3A1s were allowed to carry a full squad, so in order to make scenarios from the old version compatable with the new, M3A1 halftracks carrying a squad at the beginning of the game will be allowed to carry it until the squad is disembarked.

Silvio, wheeled vehicles in version 1.1 and higher have a very high probability of bogging when off roads. They also travel slower, making jeep rushes obsolete.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

When setting up a battle in the scenario editor, you can load a squad and a zook into an M3A1. However, once they disembark during the game, the squad can't go back into the halftrack.

This is not correct. I just test-scenarioded this and I can fill a M3A1 with a 12-man squad plus a bazooka as often as I want.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

Neither the M3 or M3A1 HT, nor the M3A1 Scout Car can fire any MGs while buttoned (just checked).

I just ran a few tests as well. Now I know what confused me into believing that the M3A1 can fire buttoned - it cannot and it makes sense since both MGs are flex.

However, the M3A1 can unbutton even when it took a casulty, this is a bit counterintuitive with elsewhere CMBO logic and confused me since I had shocked M3A1 shooting everything is sight (literally...). It fires the .50cal when unbuttoned with one crew casulty. However, if you take another crew casulty (remember you are open), the vehicle in abanonded. Maybe the M3 thingies aren't that hot after all.

The German halftracks fire when buttoned but stop doing so after one casulty.

[ March 17, 2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[History Buff]

I'd have to say it's because of the silloutte of the 251/1 is far better than the M3/A1. I mean you can spot an M3 a mile away while German 251/1, you need to be up close to work out what they are. Thats my experience.

:cool:

[Gryphon]

The Ammo loadout on the M3A1 is still far too much in comparison to the Sd.Kfz 251/1, the M3A1 gets 250 (i still wonder where they keep all that ammo _and_ those men) while the 251/1 gets 57 ammo.. besides that the 50 cal is far better than the MG42 in terms of armor penetration.. even though the 251 has a better silouhette blabla, better armor, in how many situations does that come in handy.. under 500m the 50 cal makes short work of my 251s anyway

Regards,

Gryphon

[flamingknives]

The Axis have 20mm flak, which kills HTs first shot at in excess of 500m.

I've hardly ever had any trouble with .50 cals and 251/1s. My armour kills any vehicles mounting one, and only the U.S. has infantry .50 cals

[Redwolf]

This is a primary example of tactics to be employed instead of pricing to be changed.

If you 251 get eaten by the .50cal, you obviously shouldn't go head-to-head with them.

As always, use appropriate units. As said, the 20mm is exactly what you need. Read the currently ungoing flak thread to know why - hit probablity. The mutiple-shot autoconnons in CMBO make short order of everything they can penetrate. Either you have some towed ones covering the area or you use 250/9, 234/1 or Lynx.

And another one is smallarms. The halftrack problem is primarily below 500 meters, where the front become vulnerable to .50cal fire. At this range, you can fire at the M3 with smallarms. Since both MGs are flex, the halftrack will stop firing when buttoned. If you're lucky and get it shocked, and the opponent opens it again, it will be abanonded on the next crew casulty. A high-point knockout including at least two crewmen, all done by a sharpshooter or a squad-internal LMG.

As for the ammo loadout, the allied halftrack is more like a truck than a combat vehicle. I am sure you can find exhaustive threads on this in the year 2000 and 2001 archives. The only thing that nags me is that all the ammo is for the .50cal, a seperation like in tanks would be most welcome.