Are snipers an effective unit?

[Madhouse]

I'm just wondering if it worth taking a sniper as a scout?

Can they score hits on Unbuttoned tank commanders?

Other than that they only seem useful aggainst small teams and HQs.

Thanx in advance for helping a relative Newb.

And I would really like play a pbem game But I'm a bit nervous about posting my email on open forums. Don't need it gathered up by the spam farmers.

[KyleG]

yes snipers are effective against unbuttoned tanks. I usally get a crack one and only engage at about half his max range.

They also work as scouts. Although it may be considered gamey because of the "borg spotting" effect (If one unit on your side sees an enemy, all units on your side see it).

If you would like someone to play get my e-mail out of my profile and we shall set up a game.

or we can TCP/IP.

[Jack Carr]

In my opinion, they do make good scouts. My beef is that scouting is the only thing they seem to be effective at. Once they take a shot they are far too easy to spot and subsequently eliminate. Aren't snipers stealthy? Isn't the art of sniping to be able to get a shot off, hit your target and get away unseen?

CM treats snipers as a one man scout at best. He's just another soldier with a K98 or a Moisin Nagant or a Springfield/Enfield except his rifle has a telescopic site. Everything else seems to me to be identical. To effectively use snipers, you deploy them ahead of an attacking force or as a defender send them out to do recon.

I envisioned being able to create a scenario where a sniper played a key role. City street fighting where infantry squads could be pinned down by snipers. Not in this game! But you can use them to find out in which direction the attacking armored column is coming from and then, if they are lucky, pop an un-buttoned tank commander.

I'm just kinda uncomfortable with it.

OK guys, I know you'll read this. Talk me down from the ledge please.

[Fredrock1957]

Dont "Jump Jack"...

I agree with you on most of these issues.. I too seem to think my sniper becomes easly exposed based on taking one shot... must be the big muzzle "flash" ha ha.. but they do a good job of buttoning up an AFV at a nice distance without exposing other potentially lethal units.. (like that Hiding 57mm AT gun at the edge of the woods over there)... So Madhouse I use them as spotters and a way to keep the AFV's buttoned up... just one man's opinion...

FredRock

Look at those quotes "Jump Jack Flash" ... hmmmm to much Oban

[todd]

personally i can take them or leave them, though never buy them and here's why.

maching guns are just as good at forcing tanks to button up and are much better at suppressing inf squads and driving back (or killing) lightly armored afvs. if you want a small anti afv unit why goof around w/ a sniper which at best only puts a hit on a afv. sure the hit is nice but a one crew dead 105 sherman can still ruin day of lots of your guys. get youself a bazooka or a shrek. then the thing is dead not just wounded.

i've tried to use snipers to pluck off a couple of men in an advancing squad, turns out he is a pretty piss-poor shot. about only anti-inf success i've had with is keeping mortor teams moving around so that they don't get set-up. even them he rarely scores a kill.

while were on the subject what's with nonsense of having a sniper who only carries 8-12 rounds? for goodness sake the russian ATR teams of two usally carrry 30+ rounds of much larger ammo plus a much larger weapon and the bazookas carry nearly as many rounds as the snipers! i know snipers need to be stealthy but 3 or four clips of ammo doesn't make that much noise when stored correctly in the various pockets and such. i know, i know the ammo, is abstracted (i read the manual) but it still seems to be a pretty light load.

also they seem to die very easily. and i think they should be two man teams (spotter and gunner) not the lone wolf they are now despite how they are depicted in the movies.

they spot stuff a little better than others, not that they can do much about it, and most co's have binocs so i really don't see the point in them as they are now.

my 2 1/2cents

todd

[Beta1]

They cause a lot of supression on squads and they are pretty effective against smaller groups (heavy weapon teams etc).

If you can group one with a "spare" HQ of some sort with a stealth bonus they are very hard to spot.

I've seen infantry sqauds paniced when one of them suddenly drops dead unexpectedly and they can tell where from.

[Dandelion]

About the e-mail; I have that same fear of spams, and thus use the "e-mail me through my profile" function here. It works fine and no spams yet.

On snipers. I'm not convinced these units are meant to be snipers as such. Rather, I believe they represent the sharpshooters present in most regular line units, normally at platoon or company level, with scopes of limited powers. The 600 meter range limit echoes the (failed) German Zf4 scope, but could really indicate any commercial such in use. I can't find these sharpshooters within the units they are supposed to be in, so I gather they had to be portrayed as separate units.

Line sharpshooters were integral parts of the combat units, not normally meant to operate very independently. A sort of line rifleman with increased ability of selective targeting.

I could be wrong of course, but that's how I understand them.

That said, I agree they are of very limited use. Enemy AI targeting guarantees their immediate demise in any contact, even if squeezed in between squads. Its impossible to tell if they are any more accurate than their fellow riflemen when firing, and I'm not convinced they make use of the extra 100 meter range.

Targeting would be the thing of value remaining. But in a infantry contact, targeting seems not to work. Key weapons personell may be taken out, but one never can tell as the AI will scrounge dropped key weapons. The effects of taking out squadleaders seems not to be caluclated in the engine, and it appears that taking down officers is like taking down key weapons. The officer appears to be the last to go down in the command squad, so to speak. In which case one might as well use real firepower.

While its true the sharpshooter can take down buttoned up armoured personell, I agree with the above poster, that so can anyone else with a gun, including units more versatile than sharpshooters.

For scouting, I find the sharpshooter of very limited value also. In spite of Borg effects. The sharpshooter is worth about 6 times as much as the ordinary rifleman, speaking VP's. Out on his own, he is extremely vulnerable even to stray encounters, such as support weapon crews and other typical rear area units easily overcome by proper recon patrols. On the move, he is just as easy to spot as a halfsquad, without the latters capacity of shooting their way out of a bad situation.

There goes another 2 ½ cents

Regards

Dandelion

[kingjames]

The only time I get much use out of a sniper is when getting elite or crack units. I can recall in one battle taking out two AT guns with 3 snipers. And just recently I snuck two elites around a town and helped route out a infantry squad hiding in rubble. I try never to leave home without them. In sneak mode they are virtually impossible to find unless you just stumble upon them.

[YankeeDog]

Yes, the sharpshooter unit in CM isn't really designed to represent a sniper, but rather just the the best shot in a platoon or company given a scoped rifle. Snipers generally operate independently of larger units, and a Company or Battalion level commander would exert little immediate control over a sniper team's action.

Like all many other units in CM, the 10 'ammo' for a sniper actually represents substantially more than 10 rounds of ammo. Snipers can easily cause more than one casualty per 'shot' - I have seen as many as 3 casualties caused by a single sharpshooter shot.

They're more useful in CMBB, where binoculars, EFOW, and more brittle infantry morale increase their effects, but I still find them very useful in CMBO. I never waste their shots on regular infantry squads - they shoot at HQs, Guns, Mortars, and TCs. A lone sharpshooter can easily panic a HQ in 1-2 shots, leaving your opponent with a platoon that is temporarily leaderless and therefore vulnerable. Sharpshooters also pin gun crews very easily, meaning that you can then jump the gun with a tank without having to worry about return fire. Sharpshooters will also frequently cause mortar crews to abandon their weapon.

If you're actually lucky enough to ID an enemy Spotter, a sharpshooter can panic, and quite possibly even completely eliminate, a Spotter unit at long range.

Finally, in a big armor fight having a few sharpshooters around to keep your opponent's armor buttoned (or even better, shocked!) will give you a substantial advantage. All other things being equal, armor fights often devolve into quick-draw contests, and he who shoots first usually wins. Buttoned armor reacts to new threats *much* more slowly.

I generally only play scenarios, so I'm not really qualified to say whether the points spent of a sharpshooter would be better spent elsewhere, but when I get 'em in a scenario, I love to use 'em.

Cheers,

YD

[Dandelion]

YD,

Seems you're right in appreciating their firepower more than I do. Did some testruns. Snipers get regular crews to duck on shot 1 or 2 (usually 1), hit or miss. Some get up quick, but most stay down more than one minute. The snipers fire 2-3 "shots" per minute, depending on the target stance. standing or sitting targets seemed to take about 10 seconds to aim at before discharge, hiding took longer, maybe 15-20 seconds. The to hit ratio of a Regular Sharpshooter seemed to be at about 45-55% (as in enemy casualty per ammo point). Regular Crews tended to abandon their weapon after taking casualties only, but one or two could suffice.

All this at ranges from 360-560 meters. Obviously we can safely conclude they are more accurate shots than their fellow riflemen, and that they utilise their superior range if ordered to.

A problem was of course that at such ranges, one rarely could tell the Hq or crews from other infantry units. Another problem is of course that human enemies tend to keep their hq units well out of harms way if they can. Still, I'm impressed.

I'm now convinced one could create an interesting scenario with sharpshooters as the theme.

Though ya know points count in scenarios too. A dead sniper is worth six dead riflemen when counting VPs. I'll stick to scouting with halfsquads, but I will definately pay more attention to the potential of my marksmen as force multipliers futurewise.

Regards

Dandelion

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

[snip]

Though ya know points count in scenarios too. A dead sniper is worth six dead riflemen when counting VPs. I'll stick to scouting with halfsquads... [snip]

Absolutely! Even in CMBB, where sharpshooters' binoculars make them substantially better at IDing enemy units than your average squad, I am still VERY careful with them - if they get spotted, one volley of rifle fire can lose you quite a few points.

However, for certain types of scouting, sharpshooters can work very well. Sharpshooters are the most stealthy unit in the game - unless they are actually shooting, the liklihood of them being spotted in even marginal cover is very slim unless the enemy is VERY close. As such, sometimes sharphooter can get across marginal patches of cover without being spotted that even a half-squad would have trouble hiding in (bushes, wheat, etc.)

What you don't want to so is actually send a sharpshooter into a body of cover where you think the enmy might be hiding - that's a job better handled by a half-squad as you will lose less points if they get jumped.

Cheers,

YD

[Jack Carr]

YankeeDog posted: Yes, the sharpshooter unit in CM isn't really designed to represent a sniper, but rather just the the best shot in a platoon or company given a scoped rifle. Snipers generally operate independently of larger units, and a Company or Battalion level commander would exert little immediate control over a sniper team's action.

I agree. I think that this is exactly what the sharpshooter unit represents in CM.

Well said.

That having been said, why is the sharpshooter unit an independant, distinctly separate, selectable unit within the game? Not arguing here...just kinda throwing out the question.

Personally I would rather see squads that have a man with a scoped rifle. Just like you see now the distibution of weapon types within a squad, 1 x MG42, 6 x K98, 2 x MP40. Why can't we see a squad that has one less regular K98 and have a K98S for scoped K98? Perhaps this would increase the squads firepower a tad because of the fella whose a good shot with his scoped rifle....Again, just a thought.

As Captain Kirk would say, "Opinion Spock?"

By the way, thanks to all of you who talked me down from the ledge.

[YankeeDog]

In the US Army, the sharpshooter in each platoon (armed with a scoped Springfiled m1903) was actually attached to he platoon HQ unit, and was not a member of one of the squads.

Technically, a US rifle platoon should be 3 12-man squads, a 3-man command unit, and a 1-man sharphooter. I think it is a good thing that the sharpshooter was left out of organic platoon structure in CMBO, as the unit tends to lead to 'Borg Spotting' abuses. Eventually, though, if CMX2 eliminates Borg spotting I would like to see sharphooters take their proper place in US infantry TOE.

Quite often, this platoon sharphooter was referred to as the platoon 'scout', and it was his job, to an extent, to range in front of the platoon to search for signs of enemy activity.

The difference between what you sometimes see in CM and Real Life is that this scout would rarely range more than a few tens of meters in front of the rest of the platoon - not the 'lone wolf' kind of sharpshooter deployments you sometimes see people using in CM. He was the guy whose job it was to sneak up over the next rise to get a peek before the rest of the platoon moved forward. It was not his job, nor was he really trained to execute long penetration missions deep into enemy territory alone. When the platoon was on the defense, or just not moving, he was sometimes assigned to an upper floor of a building or other prominent terrain feature to observe enemy movement, and also to harrass enemy units trying to move across streets and the like.

A possible solution that might more realisitcally limit sharpshooter within the current engine: Keep sharphooters as a separate unit, but impose severe penalties for having them outside the command radius of an HQ. For example, maybe you should completely loose the ability to issue new orders, or modify existing ones, when a sharpshooter moves out of command radius.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

YD

[Madhouse]

thanx for all the advice. I'll give him a try in a few games and see if he can survive long enough to make a difference.

[Sir Uber General]

My take is they are worth it at veteren level or above.

Stuck out on a flank where he can observe a possible enemy axis of advance they are sometimes incredibly useful. I've had 1 guy take out 2 FO teams in 1 round before they'd fired a single shot. You can't beat that for points value. Even if they are not that useful, used carefully they can slow an attack down nicely by picking off HQ and other high-value units.

Never use them at close ranges, anything under 2-300m will get him spotted instantly. Left alone, he won't take these shots.

CMBO funny moment #37, my sniper runs into an enemy sniper in a forest. Both halt and try to hide, neither taking a shot at each other as they are too close. It's like they both sat down for a cup of tea on the sideline while the battle raged in the middle of the map.

[Cabron66]

Oddly enough I just playtested a CMBB scenario where a sharpshooter, I believe, made all the difference. Since I usually play CMBO I was used to using these units as spies or just watching them get taken out early and often. Not this time. Vast difference between the two games.I had forgotten how good CMBB is. The first time I tried the scenario I was so rusty I forgot most of the tricks and got smoked, but after a little refresher course went back in. One sharpshooter kept at least six tanks buttoned up until they wandered into a flawless ambush. Half of them were burning before they even found the sniper who was less than a hundred yards away on the second floor of a church. Later I checked his kills and was shocked to see that he didn't even bag one tank commander. Quite a show.

Needless to say this would never happen in CMBO. Nope, not ever. Also, the same sharpshooter survived until turn 30 or so without moving from that same second story. This long after he had been spotted and shot at by a great deal of infantry. Unreal.

And, just to put a little icing on the cake. He was green. The enemy soldiers? Green too, you ask? Nope. Vets and regulars to a one.