Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Soliloquy brought up an interesting point in the thread about scenario ranking. indeed, there will be a plethora of scenarios soon to pour out onto the CM gaming scene, due to (as he said) ease of use of the editor. A word of caution, however, if I may. Designing a scenario is not necessarily a guarantee of a good scenarios. There are intangibles involved, the main one being adequate testing and good balance. Those don't have a button in the editor. They require perception and imrove with experience. For all first timers, test your scenarios and have them tested before you publish them. Your name is on them. You want something of which you can be duly proud. For that matter, all scenarios should be tested, by at least two different people, no matter how good the designer. The designer is not the ideal tester because he knows the scenario. He made it. Just as you have beta testers for a new game, you need scenario testers for all new scenarios. Another problem is that there will be many more designers than testers. Testing is like being a lineman on the football team. Not much glory, but some down and dirty hard work. While I am on the subject, let me say that a large part of any limited success I have had has been due in great part to the fine testers that were on the CM Beta team. There was a core group of testers who were right on top of the situation, upon whom I could always count on to do a good and thorough job. They were kind, but honest. They burst my bubble more than once. So kudos to the testers. You guys deserve a lot of credit! Thank you! ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 I agree 100% with the above. Staffordshire - England (A CM-Free Zone) ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS- The Source For CM Ops & Scenarios WWW.COMBATMISSIONS.CO.UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 I won't put mine up for d/l unless tested...nuff said. ------------------ unca pathy will show ya the path, if only he could find it himself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 I agree. I had my little scenario tested by 4 of my pbem buddies. They liked the map, units had to be changed once or twice. But I finally posted it. The one thing everyone needs is feedback. Thats why I always ask for it. It will improve your maps in the future. Give you some ideas on what people would like to play. It all comes down to numbers. 3 or 4 opinions are good.... but the more you get the better. You just have to be able to accept the critic. Hey I got one e-mail to day..... "ur site sux." guess its back to the drawing board Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Personally, i would rather host historically accurate (as far as that's possible) scenarios. But whatever the type, your right they should be well play-tested first. Lorak - "ur site sux" - Take no notice ------------------ Staffordshire - England (A CM-Free Zone) COMBAT MISSIONS- The Source For CM Ops & Scenarios WWW.COMBATMISSIONS.CO.UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 30, 2000 Author Share Posted June 30, 2000 Pathfinder, there was no insuation that your work or the work of any other who has offered a scenario here is less than quality. That was not my intention. I encourage scenario design. Most of the Raiders who do scenario design will tell you that they got into it to a degree because I encouraged them to do so, and helped them along in the learning process. That is why I have written tutorials on scenario design. I applaud your efforts, those of Lorak, Jaguar, and all the others who are having "a go" at it. By all means do it. That is why the game has an editor. I just wanted to remind those just starting out on this great adventure of the importance of good testing. I receive scenarios every day with people asking me to look at them, to play them. A quick look usually tells me whether the person who sent it has even tested it himself. And in many cases he has not. Units left on the edge of the map, roads not complete, incorrect spelling in the text, very one-sided play, etc. So my advice is positive, not negative. Let me say it plainly. Please do design scenarios if you have the urge to try. Post them. Let other folks play them. Just be sure when you do that it is a well-tested piece of work, something you can be very proud of and will stand the test. Need I say that many times the harshest critics are our peers, especially in wargaming? But you all know that. No malicious intent here, just trying to help...and also to thank the testers publicly for what they do for the gaming community and for us who design. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 06-29-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Hear, Hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Excellent advice, Wild Bill. (I'm really enjoying all the Raiders' scenarios, by the way.) Is there any chance that you might put together a tutorial on CM scenario design? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this editor and its particular strengths and weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 30, 2000 Author Share Posted June 30, 2000 Excellent idea, though by the time I got it done, you'd know the game better than me. Still it is a good thought and I will see what I can do. I think there will be more new folks coming along with the creative urge and it might be a help to avoid stepping in the same holes I did Thanks, Martyr! ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 yeah there's room for everything though. my concept is interesting tactical situations, even if the maps are a bit cheezy. i figure if someone likes one of my scenarios and wants to improve upon it they can. i make my scenarios available mostly because i enjoy sharing the maps. and if someone can go in as americans and have a great firefight which keeps them on the edge of their seat, then it's been a complete success from my standpoint. i've playtested my scenarios but not as much as some of the ones being released on the high-quality sites such as cmhq. in the end though my idea is to try to establish a niche of: 1) quick developing fast, small-to-medium scenarios 2) interesting tactical possibilities using a combination of maps and - in some battles - interesting reinforcement arrival times and locations. 3) fun combinations of americans units to try and work with, matched up against interesting combinations of german units. 4) i try to never make the germans overpowering but make them stout enough that the americans have to 'play well' (by my standards) to 'do well.' so yeah there's room for all sorts of flavors. i personally don't care as much about the historically-accurate maps but do enjoy 'plausible' unit selection. i'm glad bill made the original post. it's important that people figure out what they want when they go looking for scenarios to try. if you want 'historically accurate' you won't necessarily find it at my 'site.' if you want to be challenged by some fairly stout germans then try the scenarios. http://www.driveway.com/share?sid=bb1e128.810d3&name=CombatMission let me know if you play any of these and you're winning major victories... i'd like to hear any and all feedback in case anyone is interested. good thread, guys andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 30, 2000 Author Share Posted June 30, 2000 And your point is quite well taken Andy. Not all shoes fit the same feet. Not everyone is "gung ho" over historical recreations. To each his own and that is how it should be. We try to do that on our site with all the games we support. We have hypothetical scenarios (just did one on an American breakout from a Russian blockade of Berlin, 1982 for SP2) to the historically flavored, to the hard core history recreation (Wittmann scenarios in SP). Whoa, before you say it, I know it, guys . No scenario is totally correct historically, but in the ball park is good. So yes, there is a place for little ones, big ones, historical ones, and hypos. Lets do them all and pick our favorites. Shoes do come in all sizes ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 06-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Wild Bill brings up an interesting point and one I've been wondering about for some time now. How much historical accuracy is enough for the average gamer? I personally like realistic unit compositions and the use of unit names for the forces that were really there. I read way too much historical stuff and this sort of accuracy helps me 'get into' the game much quicker. But that's just me. My son's favorite scenarios are typical for a 12-year-old...deathmatches with the biggest tanks he can get his hands on. Thank God he doens't get tactical nukes! With the ease of design CM's scenario builder brings to the table, do you all think historical accuracy should play a major part in any scenario design? 50/50 with playability? Not at all? My scenario attempts with SP have always ended up too bogged down with minor details to be much fun to play. Wild Bill's manual(yep the one from Pegasus Enterprises)about scenario building was my bible but my scenarios were still pretty dry. The one thing that turned that around for me was having other players test my scenarios first. Now that scenario building has advanced with CM to the point of being brain-dead simple, I think it's more important than ever that I resist the temptation to post before testing. I just finished a battle set at the end of the Bulge. I think it's nicely balanced for both players and my son thinks it's a blast. I must be on the right track, for once. If anyone wants to give it a try, drop me a note and take it out for a spin. Bill, thanks for all the inspiration! If this one's a hit, I'll send it your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder1 Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 Wild Bill: I didn't take any offense at all. That earlier post is just my way saying a hearty right on! I simply am not very verbose. I simply agree that any scenario for "public consumption" should be tested/played/looked at by someone other than the scenario designer to make sure no obvious and glaring boo-boo-s aren't made Shooter: on historical accuracy, depends. on OOB and such I say yes. on terrain,,, some leeway as I am having a terrible time getting any kind of maps of the areas I want to do even semi-historical scenarios on. O f course this is just my wee, lil voice in the fog ------------------ this is pathfinder's evil twin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 1, 2000 Author Share Posted July 1, 2000 Understood! I just did not want to come over offensively to you. I'm glad to hear what you thinking is on the matter. I enjoy your posts and comments on this forum very much. WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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