Counter-battery observation during the Wolchow battles

[Andreas]

Sounds riveting? It is. A while back a number of people discussed how counter-battery worked. I have since been lucky enough to acquire the history of German counter-battery units 'Aufklärende Artillerie' by H.J. Froben (1971 - the book was about a weeks wage then, 1,000 pages, about 600 pictures and maps, and most important to me, the unit histories of Beob. Abt. 26 and 30, in which my granfather served from 1939-44)

The map here is from a very interesting battle in AG North sector. It started on January 13th 1942, and ended on June 28th 1942.

Beob.Abt. 30 was posted at the northern pincer of the German breakthrough that sealed the fate of 2nd Shock Army under General Vlassov, who was to become a traitor in captivity. The northern pincer was called 'Erika Aisle'. It terminated at 'The Hose' (Der Schlauch), which was a 3km landbridge that the Germans had closed, but which was re-opened and kept open from March 27th to May 31st 1942. When it was closed a second time, 2nd Shock Army ceased to exist as an organised force by June 21st. On June 28th, the Wehrmachtsbericht reported: '[...]the enemy lost 32,759 prisoners, 649 guns, 171 tanks, and 2,904 machine guns, mortars and submachineguns[...] The losses of the enemy increased the numbers of prisoners many times.' After half a year, and an initially very serious threat to the position of German 18th Army and the siege of Leningrad, 2nd Shock Army was destroyed.

This map is from the time between late March and the end of May, and shows the positions of German sound (empty circle) and light (circle containing an 'L') Messtellen in the Erika Aisle. It does not look as if advanced warning posts existed. The rectangular symbols with 'S' or 'L' in them could be teh computation posts, where the information from the OPs was processed.

If someone can tell me what the tactical weapon symbol on the Soviet side stands for, I'd be interested.

All the info on the battle is taken from Haupt 'The Wehrmacht in Russia - AG North'. To quote JasonC - I hope this is interesting...

[freaky ol'man w/very long wings]

Hi, Andreas, I'm not sure if I understood your question but looking at those little symbols, it just tell me that those are battery positions which are already veryfied on map?

I have at hand a book on German Defense Tactics against Russian Breakthroughs. A study of the Historical Division of USCOM. No names given of the former German generals and officers who made this pamphlet but half of it is maps, which is most likely of operations at divisional levels and not very detailed. Anyway, I hope someone else enlighten us. Thank you.

[Renaud]

Very interesting site...

Thanks Andreas.

Ren

[JonS]

Bugger :mad: I had a long post all typed up, then lost it into the ether. Anyway.

Andreas,

Thanks for the excellent post. I'm glad you're enjoying the book. The map you posted looks very similar to some I've seen of 2(NZ)Div sound- and flash-ranging bases in Italy and North Africa.

As for the symbols, they are definately artillery locations, and because the symbols lack either a single or double 'axle' between the 'wheels' I would say it is of light artillery - maybe 76.2mm? A single axle would make it medium, and a double axle heavy.

The line across the top is weird though. My guess would be the same as freaky ol'man w/very long wings, that they are battery positions. There are eight shown, and given the length of front that would be 'about' right. It's odd that they are drwan so large though - makes picking a specific location for each a bit of a lottery.

I'm sure you have probably seen this site before, but its worth repeating. The german symbols are very descritive, but some aren't very intuitive. Still, that could just be becuse my 'intuition' has been clouded by ... um ... more than a few years of digesting NATO symbology.

Regards

JonS

[Andreas]

Jon, Oswald, you are probably right. If you look closely, you see that one of the symbols is slightly different. Maybe that is a different type of gun? I will see if I can find more info elsewhere in the book.

[John Kettler]

The symbols, based on some digging and the new thread on German symbols, are for generic howitzers, no size indicated by numerics, but not heavy, for which there would be modifications to the basic symbol. I believe the remaining part of the howitzer symbol indicates that the weapon is fortified by being dug-in. I believe the bar with uplifted ends is a German entrenchment marker.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andreas]

John, thanks a lot, very helpful.

I have scanned a few pictures that give an impression of the landscape in the Wolchow battle area. They are all from Haupt "Leningrad Wolchow Kurland"

A destroyed Soviet tank outside Tschudowo (in the map above. The caption says BT7, but it looks more like an early T34 to me. Notice the WW 1 look of the battlefield.

A bomb run on the supply route of 2nd Shock Army. Notice the endless forests to the side of the road.

A German patrol in the Wolchow swamps, were they tracked down the remnants of 2nd Shock Army.

A German supply cart passes a knocked-out T34 somewhere in the Wolchow area.

[freaky ol'man w/very long wings]

Hi, I'm reading a historical narrative on the Spanish Bleau Division, (ie, the Epic.) by a Spanish author and veteran of this division.

He gives a vivid account of the experiences he and many veterans had in the Volchov Front.

Whenever he describes they were being attack by artillery fire, he mentions the kind of rounds being used in such times.

i.e. 70., 120., 155., and 12,40.

This are the kind of rounds being used and which I found when I retraced my reading in order to give this appreciation.

The Blue Division was in the Volchov from, Oct. of 41' to May of 42', when it was ordered to the "outskirts" of Leningrad.

Of their own artillery, the author mostly mention the 10'5. (105)'s.

One very interesting account I've read is of the time when the river frozes and they have to pull back their guns from positions by the river's bed, in order to protect them from Soviet coup de'main's.

It took them three days to dig them out from the ice. Talking about being dug in!

The artillery men, besides being promised being sent back to Spain if they didn't make it in the next twelve hours, were told they will use animal traction after the guns had been dug-out. When they replied that there were no horses. That's what I mean answered the commander, and you sergeant will pull one of the four.

This make me think that a battery could be four guns and that we need to differentiate between what can be a light howitzer and a field howitzer?

ps: Of course, I wanted to lighten-up my "own account". Two of the guns where moved by two captured Russian tractors, the other two by horses and men together. The last two guns took thirteen hours to move, about three kilometers to a rear position.

Still, I have a gut-feeling that this was a known joke between the Spaniards by the way the author pauses his words.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by freaky ol'man w/very long wings:

This make me think that a battery could be four guns

Four guns to a field or medium battery is one of the most solid organisational rules of thumb I know for the WW2 period. The only exceptions I know of are some 6-gun SP batteries (US and German armoured divisions), late-war reduced-strength 3-gun batteries in some German organisations, and the odd Soviet habit of having 2-gun batteries of 122mms. The British army are of course different, having 8-gun (late war) or 12-gun (early war) batteries, but both organisations use a 4-gun troop.

All the best,

John.

[phancucchin@aol.com]

Originally posted by Andreas:

This map is from the time between late March and the end of May, and shows the positions of German sound (empty circle) and light (circle containing an 'L') Messtellen in the Erika Aisle. It does not look as if advanced warning posts existed. The rectangular symbols with 'S' or 'L' in them could be teh computation posts, where the information from the OPs was processed.

If someone can tell me what the tactical weapon symbol on the Soviet side stands for, I'd be interested.

All the info on the battle is taken from Haupt 'The Wehrmacht in Russia - AG North'. To quote JasonC - I hope this is interesting...

Interesting and thank you. Questions I have thought about looking at the image:

1. the German linear setup for sound capture. but the Light does not need this? top of the picture shows one L away from others. is dashed line a radio linkage?

2. The German have the two angles sound capture. Does this improve the location findings? I assume that the circles with line interconnect have relationship to each other?

3. Is this the tactic? pierce the enemy line and thrust forward teh location into new territory so that enemy guns can be located better?

4. light and sound are independant? is the information gathered together?

5. I think that Andreas have the playtester status? is the counter battery a new hidden game feature?

[JonS]

Originally posted by phancucchin@aol.com:

1. the German linear setup for sound capture. but the Light does not need this? top of the picture shows one L away from others. is dashed line a radio linkage?

The equipment used for sound ranging worked best if the listening stations were in a straight line. For flash ranging this wasn't necessary - actually, they (flash ranging bases) usually seem to take the L shape somewhere. If I thought long and hard enough about geometrical relationships I could probably come up with a good reason for that.

However, in either case the location of each station had to be surveyed very accurately.

Each of the stations may have had comms with each other, but more likely their link was back to the control station. The lines between each station oare more to show which station goes with which base. As an aside - the commonwealth ones I've seen use dashes to connect the Sound Ranging Bases, and a solid line to connect the Flash Spotting Bases

Originally posted by phancucchin@aol.com:

2. The German have the two angles sound capture. Does this improve the location findings?

Yes, but it isn't a requirement.

Originally posted by phancucchin@aol.com:

I assume that the circles with line interconnect have relationship to each other?

Yes. In Commonwealth parlance each of these conected lines was known as a 'base'

Originally posted by phancucchin@aol.com:

3. Is this the tactic? pierce the enemy line and thrust forward teh location into new territory so that enemy guns can be located better?

Not sure - my guess would be that the finger was formed in order to cut the Russian supply lines, and the gunners figured they might as well use it to set up a couple of baselines. Whatever, it looks like a hell of a place to be stuck out at the end of

Originally posted by phancucchin@aol.com:

4. light and sound are independant? is the information gathered together?

Nope - sound and flash ranging info is usually gathered independantly. Normally, sound ranging is used during the day, and flash ranging at night - mainly because that's when muzzle flashes were most visible.

The data generated by sound bases and flash bases could certainly be used in conjunction to improve target fixation, but it wasn't gathered togeteher (usually).

As an aside, I well remember the first time I observed field artillery firing at night. With visions of the photos from the barrage for Operation Supercharge in my mind I eagerly awaited the opening of adjustment. Imagine my disappointment when I then discovered just how well FNH propellant works (FNH stands for Flashless Non Hydroscopic) On a pitch black night, there was absolutely no flash, not even a few stray sparks out the end of the barrel. So I went back to my sleeping bag and tried to sleep amidst the thundering booms...

Originally posted by phancucchin@aol.com:

5. I think that Andreas have the playtester status? is the counter battery a new hidden game feature?

Dunno, but I doubt it.

A couple of threads on Counter Battery stuff:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024331

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=023444;p= (this one got a bit heated, but there is lots of nitty griity technical details in there)

Regards

JonS

[ July 28, 2002, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

A destroyed Soviet tank outside Tschudowo (in the map above. The caption says BT7, but it looks more like an early T34 to me.

Are you sure the timeframe for this photo is OK ? The turret looks an awful lot like a T-34/76 1943 (angle at the middle of the turret) and the road wheels are mixed rubber rimmed/all steel too indicating the tank is not your typical 1941 but of later make.

Notice the WW 1 look of the battlefield.

That is what is usually left of forrest after prolonged barrages. Will that terrain type be modelled in CMBB ?

A bomb run on the supply route of 2nd Shock Army. Notice the endless forests to the side of the road.

You call THAT endless ?

A German patrol in the Wolchow swamps, were they tracked down the remnants of 2nd Shock Army.

Notice how bunched up the German troops are given the terrain. Not good.

A German supply cart passes a knocked-out T34 somewhere in the Wolchow area.

I wonder what kind of a motor tractor they would have needed to traverse that terrain....

[Andreas]

Phancucchin, JonS has already answered it all. Just to confirm - the Erika Aisle was a weird leftover from a failed Soviet breakthrough, followed by a successful attempt to cut off the broken through Soviets followed by a successful move to re-open a supply line by the Soviets. All in the space of three-four months. It certainly was not the place to be if you valued life and limb. The counter-battery observers just used the position to get good readings on the position of the Soviet guns inside and outside the pocket.

In this case, they may have needed two lines to register sound because of the narrowness of the position. Normally they would have advanced warning posts, but the Erika Aisle was apparently not deep enough for that. I will post a picture of observation positions in the Yelnia salient here in the next few days.

Sound and flash ranging could be carried out independently or together. Both sound and flash ranging batteries (company size) belonged to the same parent unit, a Beobachtungsabteilung (Battalion size).

BTW - does anyone know if the Soviets used sound ranging? One of the unit histories in Froben suspects they only did flash ranging.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by tero:

Originally posted by Andreas:

A destroyed Soviet tank outside Tschudowo (in the map above. The caption says BT7, but it looks more like an early T34 to me.

Are you sure the timeframe for this photo is OK ? The turret looks an awful lot like a T-34/76 1943 (angle at the middle of the turret) and the road wheels are mixed rubber rimmed/all steel too indicating the tank is not your typical 1941 but of later make.

tero, sorry for the delay. Things have been busy of late. No I am quite uncertain that the timeframe is alright. Haupt seems to have used a lot of private pictures, or his own collection, and he and his editors have made their share of mistakes. I think the locality is most likely correct, but the time-frame may well be off.

Now - anyone got the answer on the Soviet use of sound-ranging?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

[snips]

Now - anyone got the answer on the Soviet use of sound-ranging?

Errh -- what was the question?

Never mind, I've just tried out my new OCR toy on pages IX-31 to IX-32 of TM 30-340, "Handbook on USSR Military Forces", and if this doesn't say what you want, then I don't know.

All the best,

John.

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8. SOUND RANGNG EQUIPMENT

a. General. The Soviets have made wide use of sound ranging equipment for counterbattery operations since 1909. This type of equipment is superior to optical equipment when used in cold, fog, snow, or rain. Thus, it is suited to conditions in the USSR. This equipment also may be used to adjust fire, but seldom is used with calibers smaller than 107-mm.

b. Equipment. A sound ranging set consists of three pairs of ranging posts and a central control station. The posts normally are surveyed in before operation, although methods exist which obviate the need for surveying. Each post is equipped with a sensitive microphone, coupled to a recording tape similar to that used in the central control station. The microphones are buried just below the surface of the ground to eliminate surface noises. The data is relayed from the ranging post to the central station by special low resistance cable or by supersensitive radio equipment.

The central control station receives the data on a recording tape, one for each of the ranging stations. The pattern on the tape indicates the nature of the source of the sound recorded. The time difference of the sound as registered by each ranging post is recorded automatically at the central station. This recording. serves as the basis for further computation on special sound ranging slide rules and graphical tables to locate the origin of the sound by converging rays.

9. FLASH RANGING EQUIPMENT

Observation posts employ battery commanders scissors telescope, stop watches, and range finders. The battery commanders scissors telescope is modified so that two persons can observe simultaneously; one tube is fitted with an additional eyepiece. An optical range finder also is employed. All optical instruments are equipped with lighting devices to aid night observation. For observing at long ranges, a monocular tube, which has three eyepieces to develop magnification of 15 X, 23 X, and 30X, is used.

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[ August 01, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[Andreas]

John, thanks a lot. That was exactly what I was after. My question arose from a comment in a Beobachtungsabteilungs unit history given in 'Aufklaerende Artillerie', where the author thinks the Red Army did not use sound ranging because of the special interest the German sound ranging equipment attracted when the unit surrendered in May 45 in Kurland.