Armored Cars

[Auggy]

These are used in CM for a reason. How often were these used in WWII? Also what do you think are the best of these to used in CM both german & allied?

[gredeker]

I'm pretty sure that the only "common" German armored cars are the 20mm variety. I want to say that only a few hundred of the 75mm were built, and less than a hundred of the 50mm version ("Puma").

The allied armored cars were all pretty common, from what I understand.

As far as game use, I really like the German 75mm 234/3 AC, as it is impervious to .50 cal MG fire (unlike the 251/9 75mm halftrack), and packs a good wallop against infantry without using any armor points. The 20mm version (234/1) is good against light allied armor, and has tons of ammo.

With the allies, I really like the Greyhound. It has a fast turret and a fast rate of fire, making it a great unit for running around in the enemy rear. The 37mm has enough oomph to take out most German armor from the side and rear, and its high speed allows it to actually get these flank shots.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

These are used in CM for a reason. How often were these used in WWII? Also what do you think are the best of these to used in CM both german & allied?

CM:BO doesn't IMHO provide terribly good coverage of armoured cars and light recce vehicles. From the British point of view, there is little doubt that the Daimler armoured car and the Daimler Dingo scout car were the best-liked vehicles of their type. The armoured car appears in CM:BO, the Dingo doesn't. It would also have been nice to see the Humber Light Recce Car represented, as found in the recce regiments of infantry divisions -- armoured cars would only be found in armoured car regiments which were Corps recce assets, and so not likely to be found in the close battle quite as frequently as CM:BO suggests. As I've mentioned before, I'd also have liked to see the Staghound, the Humber and the AEC armoured cars represented.

American armoured cars are I'm afraid rather dull; there's the M-8 and the M-20 on the same chassis, that's it, and both are in CM:BO.

For the Germans, the eight-wheelers are covered in CM:BO, but the Sd Kfz 222 for some reason has been left out. I'd have liked to see it. I'd also have liked to see some MG-toting BMW R-75 motorcycle combinations, just like you see on the movies.

All the best,

John.

[Soddball]

I thought the Humber was available? :confused:

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

These are used in CM for a reason. How often were these used in WWII? Also what do you think are the best of these to used in CM both german & allied?

Sir Augustus, I have to inform you that you look very very close to a troll in your last question on light tanks, first not even recognizing the stuff you get when pressing RETURN in CMBO (unit stats), and later playing smarty and posting cognitions about the Germans and their "light tank weakness" that is obviously only based on CMBO, which is not a reconnaissance - intensive game. Ever heard of the Pz I + II? If that wasn't a light tank, and a light tank when it was designed, then what?

May I politely ask whether the above questions are meant serious? Just say anything that make be believe you're not just trying a rats game with the members of this forum, triggering some action and then watch it with Popcorn.

[Auggy]

Redwolf- I'm very new to this game. I discovered it last month on the internet last month actually. I'm finally getting it but haven't got it YET. I'm trying to figure out what the strong and weak points of this game are and how to use them. I'm getting the game in a few days so you might not hear from me for awhile after that. (all I'll be doing is playing it probably) As with the light tanks and armoured cars i was trying to see which one of those two groups was the better buy and to find out what the best in those classes were of both sides. All I have played is the two demo games sofar. I'm sorry if i did anything wrong I was just trying to find out some info.

P.S. Hey I'm only in 8th grade.

[Stixx]

For 8th Grade ya have to give this guy some credit...

Is Manx's "Boot Camp" still up anywhere? I can't recall seeing it at CMHQ.

That would of been very useful for this bloke.

Stix

[Redwolf]

Hey, Augustus, welcome to the game!

Please don't be too upset about my scepsis, because as sad it is - we have (had) quite a few people here who are in fact trolls.

As for the ACs, they had a lot of those in WW2, especially the British who used small MG-only stuff a lot, where the Americans had more of the full-gun Greyhounds.

The important thing with regards to CMBO is that ACs (and light tanks) were used for reconnaissance. They were used to find the CMBO battlefields, not to fight on them. They were also used for escort service for convoys and other duty of that kind.

But for a CMBO-size actual fight, especially attack/defense you wouldn't expect to see them, they are ineffective in the fight and generally too valuable for the time after the fight. So attacker's don't bring them along, defenders use them as last resort resevere, if at all. Forces which had plenty also tended to abadon them on the spot when facing real tanks, e.g. many Greyhounds in the early Ardennes fighting. And rightly so, they are few worse deathtraps than a thin armored vehicle, and crewmen, especially experienced recon troops, are more valuable than the stupid cars.

When people can select their forces in CMBO, you see quite a few ACs, which is due to several factors:

- they don't fight the next day with what they have left after this fight

- they make unrealistically skillful use of every assert on the battlefield

- due to absolute spotting they have a good chance that a flanking on a real tank acutally works. In reality the Greyhound would always bump into Panther's front, right on top of a Panzerfaust carrying angry HJ bunch

- people often want more AFVs than they have armor points and have to choose vehicles in the "combined arms" quickbattle setting.

Having said all that: Greyhound, Daimler AC and Puma are all very similar. Extremly fast on roads, limited mobility on other ground and a gun which is suitable to shoot up light armor or medium tanks from the side/rear.

The 234/1 is special because it is armed with a autocannon, which has a very high hit chance in CMBO. If you meet anything it can penetrate, the other guys has almost no chance to survive the first shot trade.

The 234/3 is rather a close support vehicle than a classical AC. In CMBO you use it to contribute to the HE-intensive vehicle masses you need to get rid of all the infantry running around. In reality it was part of the very aggressive recon teams the Germans formed, which would actually seek to destroy anything they meet that isn't dug in or heavily armored. This makes for interesting games, BTW.

[Auggy]

Uh thanx. I had read somewhere that infantry was a major part in this game. (i hope i'm correct) So I was wanted a cheap light armoured vehicle to use as an anti-infantry role. Just that and not really as a recon unit. I like light tanks a little better because they have a chance at taking out a medium tank however small that may be though. But as a close support infantry weapon I would use these greatly.

[YankeeDog]

Augustus - welcome to the game!

In regards to your last question, I don't find most ACs especially useful in the anti-infantry role. With the possible exception of the 75mm-armed varieties (which, as noted above, are really a special case - they're really more of a light SP gun than an AC), they just don't have the HE punch to have a significant effect on infantry.

Sometimes they can be handy, though, because they are very mobile and therefore can get where you need them very quickly. A few quick 37mm rounds from an M8 to supress an HMG team that's butchering your infantry can be much more useful than the 105mm rounds sitting in the lager of your priest that won't get there for two more turns.

ACs are also much more vulnerable to infantry than heavier armour. This is especially true of Axis ACs, which can easily be taken out by the .50 HMG from the side or rear. In addition to the obvious shrecks and fausts, allied ACs have to worry about German on-board mortars because of their open turrets - I knocked out two Greyhounds with on-board 81mms in a recent PBEM.

If you're looking for an AFV that is not a medium or heavy tank to use anti-infantry, there are some options. The first one that springs to mind is the Allied Stuart. True, it has the same 37mm gun as the Greyhound, but it has two more MGs than the 'hound, so it has substiantially more infantry supressing power. The fact that it's turret isn't open means it can stick around through light arty fire, too. The Pz II would be the closest thing to a Stuart on the Axis side (the Pz III isn't modeled in CMBO), but the Pz II is not as effective against infantry as the Stuart - for one thing, it has only one MG.

The commonwealth has some fun cheap anti-infantry toys to play with like the MMG carrier - basically a lightly armored, mobile MG nest. fragile, but cheap. Properly used, it's high ammo load can do a lot of work - if you can keep it alive.

As mentioned before, the Axis has 75mm ACs and Halftracks. These do fairly well at infantry supression considering their price, but low ammo load can be a problem.

If MBTs are out of the question, the real kings of infantry supression are the SP guns - Priests, Sextons, Hummels and the like. They're not so cheap, though, and keeping them alive can be trickly - they're just as vulnerable as an AC without the speed to bug out fast when danger approaches. In terms of 'bang for the buck', though, they are a great bargain - you just have to be skilled (or lucky) to keep them alive long enough to use all that bang.

Don't forget flame vehicles like the Wasp and the Flame version of the 251 HT, either. Again, they're fragile, but they're very useful in city fights where you need to dig infantry out of buildings.

And I should also mention the German Flak vehicles - they're not especially cheap, but their high rate of fire can really mow infantry down. Many consider their use kind of gamey, though.

Anyway, those are some of my ideas on the matter. I'm sure more experienced members here on the forum will have more ideas for you on the matter.

Cheers,

YD

[Brian]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

For the Germans, the eight-wheelers are covered in CM:BO, but the Sd Kfz 222 for some reason has been left out. I'd have liked to see it. I'd also have liked to see some MG-toting BMW R-75 motorcycle combinations, just like you see on the movies.

All the best,

John.

Well, while I agree with you about the British Armoured Cars, John, I understand the 222 was by 1943 pretty much relegated to second-line duties and used primarily on LoS security and such like. While the M/C's are sadly missed, again, by the time period of CMBO, they were no longer being used in the same way, as far as I can tell, as they had earlier in the war.

What I think is missing is the Panhard series of Armoured Cars that the Germans used extensively after the fall of France. Also the Schwimmwagen (now wouldn't that make battles interesting? ). I'd also like to be able to arm the Kubelwagen and the Schwimmwagen, as the Americans are able to arm the Jeep.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

Uh thanx. I had read somewhere that infantry was a major part in this game. (i hope i'm correct) So I was wanted a cheap light armoured vehicle to use as an anti-infantry role. Just that and not really as a recon unit. I like light tanks a little better because they have a chance at taking out a medium tank however small that may be though. But as a close support infantry weapon I would use these greatly.

In Quickbattles with free unit selection on maps with sufficient cover (med trees, med hills), infantry rules, especially in MEs. If you go down that road, you want AFVs with high HE capability, and cheap ones, as cheap as you can. M8 HMC, 251/9, 234/3, StuH, 95mm Cromwells, maybe Priests. In don't say you have to settle for this kind of gameplay, but if so, don't try to win by armor duels. Shameless plug: http://thforums.com/CMBO/ has a "tournamenthouse 101" in the tactics section.

I think you are confused about the guns on ACs and light tanks. With the exception of the Chaffee, the light tanks do not have better guns than the gun-carrying ACs. Unless you consider the 95mm Cromwells light tanks...

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Augustus - welcome to the game!

In regards to your last question, I don't find most ACs especially useful in the anti-infantry role. With the possible exception of the 75mm-armed varieties (which, as noted above, are really a special case - they're really more of a light SP gun than an AC), they just don't have the HE punch to have a significant effect on infantry.

Sometimes they can be handy, though, because they are very mobile and therefore can get where you need them very quickly. A few quick 37mm rounds from an M8 to supress an HMG team that's butchering your infantry can be much more useful than the 105mm rounds sitting in the lager of your priest that won't get there for two more turns.

ACs are also much more vulnerable to infantry than heavier armour. This is especially true of Axis ACs, which can easily be taken out by the .50 HMG from the side or rear. In addition to the obvious shrecks and fausts, allied ACs have to worry about German on-board mortars because of their open turrets - I knocked out two Greyhounds with on-board 81mms in a recent PBEM.

....

Cheers,

YD

Augustus-

Ditto from Zitadelle as well; welcome to the game. Just ensure that you keep working on your homework and attending classes- this game will steal your soul....

I thought I would add to Yankee Dog's comments especially since I was the victim of the 81mm mortar attack. I was thoroughly surprised to see my M8 brew up from an unknown enemy, until I slowly watched the movie and saw the incoming mortar round.

(Sidenote: how's it going YD? Good to see that you are handling yourself well in the Newbie Tourney. We need to do another PBEM- you pick the battle.)

Armored cars are not handy against infantry and they do not survive well in close quarter firefights. Definitely use them for what they were intended- scouts. Use them to quickly probe enemy lines and get them out of the lethal zone of any enemy they encounter. If it's infantry keep them in the 150m range. If it's tanks- just get them behind cover.

You will actually find that the CMBO AI will move your assets into cover if the unit cannot deal with the threat. In one turn recently, I had an armored car encounter a tank in the middle of a move command. It fired a single round at the tank and proceeded to move into a gully out of the tank's LOS; completely ignoring my commands (saving the unit).

Each side's armored cars has their advantages. In the PBEM battle with YD, his Pumas had better killing/pentration than my Greyhounds. Still, the Greyhound had a higher ROF. In either case, we quickly realized that one hit equaled one hit (with a couple exceptions- YD, remember the immortal Greyhound...).

Which gets into another armored car tactic. Keep them moving. In follow-on experience, I have frequently used the 'Fast' command, and really avoided the 'Hunt' command. As is frequently the case in CMBO- and you will enocunter it throughout playing the game- use the particular units' advantages and be aware of their disadvantages.

One more thing for when you get the full version of CMBO. Definitely play PBEMs- they add an entirely new dimenision to the game. You will frequently find yourself checking e-mail as you wait for the next turn from your opponent.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

Redwolf- I'm very new to this game. I discovered it last month on the internet last month actually. I'm finally getting it but haven't got it YET. I'm trying to figure out what the strong and weak points of this game are and how to use them. I'm getting the game in a few days so you might not hear from me for awhile after that. (all I'll be doing is playing it probably) As with the light tanks and armoured cars i was trying to see which one of those two groups was the better buy and to find out what the best in those classes were of both sides. All I have played is the two demo games sofar. I'm sorry if i did anything wrong I was just trying to find out some info.

P.S. Hey I'm only in 8th grade.

First Off Welcome to CMBO!

"P.S. Hey I'm only in 8th grade"

No ****???

:eek:

You write better than most college students I see with High School diploma's!

Don't worry about the odd flame or bad comment in your direction! Keep learning about CBMO. Hopefully it will arrive soon and then you can join our collective addiction

-tom w

[ May 01, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Auggy]

I got the game today in the mail. On my birthday. Thanx for all the replies everyone! I'll be playing it awhile so you might not hear from me.