Daimler AC: to HE or not to HE?

[edgars]

This is from Tips&Tricks forum, i thought this deserves a separate thread in the main forum.

Redwolf: The Daimler has no HE at all, not even grenade.

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Then John D Salt said:

Having checked this in the scenario designer, I have to ask why? 2-pounder tank guns may not have carried HE in the Western Desert, but 2-pdr HE was issued to armoured car units in NW Europe. The inability to fire HE with the Littlejohn adapter fitted to the 2-pdr was a fact that counted against it. I understand that the commanders of some cars left the Littlejohn adapter off and fired the APCNR rounds without it; it still gave improved penetration in this "improvised APCR" mode, although obviously not as good as with the adapter.

I believe there was also a version of the Littlejohn adapter for the US 37mm, but I don;t know how widely it was used by the US Army.

All the best,

John.

[ January 30, 2002, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: ciks ]

[PiggDogg]

Those Daimler ACs are the most irritating pests that can harry German vehicles. :eek: :eek:

& yeah, thost pests should have some HE so that they harry the German infantry. Spread the misery out to those Krauts.

Cheers, Richard

[Swift]

Are the Daimlers in the game equipped with "littlejohns"

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Swift:

Are the Daimlers in the game equipped with "littlejohns"

No, to judge by the penetration performance

figures. If they were, the German player

would have the additional annoyance of the

beasties having anti-tank capabilities comparable with a 6-pounder.

The Daimler was an extremely good car -- it

continued in service IIRC until 1960.

All the best,

John.

[Simon Fox]

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018203

[Brian]

Originally posted by Simon Fox:

[QB]http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018203[/QB ]

An interesting discussion. The information I have is that the British did develop a HE round for the 2 Pdr. It was however, not widely issued. It was also a nose fused round, which made it more suitable for destruction of materiale and personnel than the destruction of bunkers/buildings.

The Australian Army, according to correspondance I've had with Michael Cecil, the head curator of weapons at the AWM (and author of the excellent series of "profiles" Australian WWII equipment), developed their own HE round in late 1942, with a base fuse, in response to the poor performance of the 37mm HE round carried by the M3 Stuarts utilised in the "Battle of the Beachheads" in New Guinea. Again, the 37mm round was a nose fused round. The Australian one was a base fused round, which ensured that it penetrated its target and then exploded. This round was trialled against the British one and found to be superior against Japanese coconut log bunkers of the type encountered in New Guinea. It was on general issue from mid-1943 and explained the longevity of the Mathilda in Australian service, compared to elsewhere.

Back to the British use of a HE round. There are tantalising comments in several books regarding the issue and use of a 2 Pdr HE round by Armoured Car Regiments in NW Europe. Usually mentioned in passing WRT the Little John Adapter and the apparent unpopularity of that addition to the muzzle of their weapons because it prevented the firing of HE. Which obviously couldn't be a complaint if they didn't have HE to fire, now could it?

In correspondance, David Fletcher, head librarian at the Royal Armoured Musuem at Bovington and author of several excellent books on British armour development and history made the same point to me. He is apparently preparing to write a book on British Armoured Car Regt's in NW Europe, so hopefully more information will surface eventually.

So, it would appear that there were sufficient quantities of the British nose fused round produced to supply at least some to the Armoured Car Regiments. As to how much, is unknown at the present moment. Because of its design, it is not particularly valuable against "hard" targets but excellent against "soft" targets. How that could be modelled in CM I have no idea.

[John Kettler]

ciks,

I don't have the HE answers you're seeking, but I can tell you that the Daimler can be deadly even to real German armor. I got a flank kill with one against a Jagdpanzer IV. You already know what it can do to light armor. If the thing had HE, then I'd love to see it modeled. That opportunity probably won't come until CM II, the engine rewrite.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Simon Fox]

According to Martin Rapier (pers. corr.) 2-pdr HE was issued to the British Armoured units in France 1940. He also suggest that limited quantities were available to armoured units but not to AT gun units.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Simon Fox:

According to Martin Rapier (pers. corr.) 2-pdr HE was issued to the British Armoured units in France 1940. He also suggest that limited quantities were available to armoured units but not to AT gun units.

Interesting. And yet, in the Western Desert, HE was completely unknown, and it is primarily from that period the myth that the 2 Pdr could not/did not (depending upon whom you read) fire HE.

So, why wasn't HE shipped to Egypt? Was it perhaps because there was a belief the space was better taken up with AP? The British Army did some crazy things, continually shipping out useless pieces of equipment, such as the infamous Rota-Trailer, which was a serious waste of shipping space, despite the continual pleas from Middle East HQ for them to stop sending them. So I wouldn't be surprised if it stemmed from a Whitehall decision, not to ship HE.