anti-tank rifles

[fire-fox]

i only have the demo

but are the anti-tank rifles werth geting and if you think they are which one's do you recomand

[ October 10, 2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: fire-fox ]

[Panzer Leader]

My joke isn't funny anymore.

[ October 10, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ]

[fire-fox]

[ October 10, 2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: fire-fox ]

[Yggdrasill]

Well, it really depends what you're going up against, and what you expect them to do.

I have taken out just a single tank with AT rifles (the Finns took out a Russian light tank), but they will regularly take out un/lightly armored units such as trucks and halftracks.

However, they may need several hits to do so, and sometimes even that is not enough as the rounds often pass clear through without damage.

However, AT rifles have a lot of rounds, between 50 and 100 depending on type. I find them extremely useful for keeping armor buttoned up, more so than snipers. They also appear to be difficult to spot, especially in steppe.

Hence, against real tanks they work well for suppression, and may *rarely* get a lucky kill. Use them in conjunction with infantry or AT guns, but don't expect them to stop an armored assault.

[Nippy]

"...but don't expect them to stop an armored assault."

Try driving a Platoon of PZ38(T) tanks into the Jaws of awaiting Soviet 14.5mm AT rifle ambush. Let the Panzer-Slaughter begin!

The Soviet PTRD/PTRS, Finnish Lend Lease BOYZ, and various 20mm AT guns are very effective against early war tanks, HT's, Open top Tanks like the Hummel or Marder, Trucks, and wooden bunkers. The thing is to use them in mass. I thought that the Russian's used the AT rifles in teams of 8 or so.

So yes, unlike what the Panzer-O-philes at the WWII Online boards claim, AT rifles can be very effective if used right...or your opponent is dumb enough to send in tanks without infantry support.

[MikeyD]

I believe anti-tank rifles can also supress bunkers and troops in heavy buildings. Haven't tried it much, myself. I just remember for much of the Beta they couldn't and were the object of much debate (abuse). Finally, there was a general cry of relief when anti-tank rifles started being more useful in the game.

One good thing about them, even against heavy tanks they can merrily plink away without being spotted, keeping the tank buttoned up.

They also work better in a mass. I recall someone tried out an armored assault against 20-30 anti-tank rifles in trenches. It's amazing what 50 hits in 30 seconds to can do to a tank crew's morale!

[ October 10, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Mud]

Try "A Deadly Affair" to gain some respect for ATRs and Molotovs. Partisans attempt to ambush a truck/halftrack/tank convoy...

[Miikka]

Nippy wrote:

Finnish Lend Lease BOYZ

What did you mean with that?

Miikka

[Conscript Bagger]

I think he meant Boys ATRs sent over by Britain. But his post does conjure up an image of a bunch of Bloods and Crips going after a T-26.

[Yggdrasill]

Originally posted by Nippy:

"...but don't expect them to stop an armored assault."

Try driving a Platoon of PZ38(T) tanks into the Jaws of awaiting Soviet 14.5mm AT rifle ambush. Let the Panzer-Slaughter begin!

The thing is to use them in mass. I thought that the Russian's used the AT rifles in teams of 8 or so.

I agree, as I said in my original, post, they work against LIGHT armor , such as the Pz38T. But against heavier stuff you'll just keep them buttoned (which is of course very helpful).

The thing is, while I agree 8 (or 30) AT rifles can be effective, you have to start weighing that cost against buying actual armor. Of course, if you're defending with an infantry force, that's not an option.

[akdavis]

In one scenario I played, I had a single German AT rifle team suppressing my two platoons of Russian light tanks. EFOW can be a real bitch. Everytime I moved a tank up to fire, I'd start taking hits. I could hear the sound of an AT rifle firing, but I had absolutely no indication of where it was coming from. As a consequence, my armor was rendered impotent for most of the scenario. When the scenario ended, I found out the AT rifle had been in a foxhole in some woods. During most of the scenario, it's position had been marked with a "Infantry?" sound contact. That's one beef I have with the game. You'd think a unique weapon would get a unique sound contact. 3 enemy AT guns were rapidly identified by sound contacts, at least allowing me to suppress them or maneuver relative to the thier positions, but that damn AT rifle was like the hand of God coming down and slapping my tanks everytime I tried to move. Never had any idea where it was, even when I had infantry less than 100m from it while it was firing.

[apex]

German 7.9mm rocks against light russian armor (BT series ect). It takes a couple of shots, but those poor buggers never know what hit them.

apex

[Yggdrasill]

For fun i just played a 700 pt ME against the AI; summer 1942; AI was axis armor; I took all infantry, mostly green it turned out. Fairly open terrain, some hills some patchesof woods, but a lot of open space.

Axis had 4 PzIIIJs, a PzII, and two armored cars, plus a platoon of recon infantry with mortars, but no MGs.

I took two platoons, about 15 AT rifles, 4 MGs.

I crushed the AI, but mostly because it wasstupid, and advanced against me.

At range (500m), I was able to take out only one armored car; the rest of the kills were much closer, only around 250m, tho I did have some guns shooting from the flank at around 150m.

Never had a chance to kill of better than very low, and the PzIIIJs took a LOT of hits. They bottled up in a copse with my infantry on them and got hammered. But even so, one PzIII made it to the last turn, after taking what I would swear was around 150-200 hits, including numerous track and gun hits, as well as a few penetrations, not to mention 4 molotov cocktails. It was firing to the end.

In the end, all the tanks abandoned, none knocked out. I would NOT have liked to have tried that against a real player, who would have just sat back and pasted me from a distance.

[Abbott]

Originally posted by akdavis:

In one scenario I played, I had a single German AT rifle team suppressing my two platoons of Russian light tanks. EFOW can be a real bitch. Everytime I moved a tank up to fire, I'd start taking hits. I could hear the sound of an AT rifle firing, but I had absolutely no indication of where it was coming from. As a consequence, my armor was rendered impotent for most of the scenario. When the scenario ended, I found out the AT rifle had been in a foxhole in some woods. During most of the scenario, it's position had been marked with a "Infantry?" sound contact. That's one beef I have with the game. You'd think a unique weapon would get a unique sound contact. 3 enemy AT guns were rapidly identified by sound contacts, at least allowing me to suppress them or maneuver relative to the thier positions, but that damn AT rifle was like the hand of God coming down and slapping my tanks everytime I tried to move. Never had any idea where it was, even when I had infantry less than 100m from it while it was firing.

Sounds pretty realistic to me.

[akdavis]

Well, my only complaint is that I didn't get a sound contact that distinguished it from other types of infantry. I can hear an AT rifle firing, and I'm sure the game is giving me a sound contact for that, but the problem is: I have no way of knowing which of the 20 sound contacts scattered across the map is that AT rifle I can distinctly hear firing?

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by akdavis:

You'd think a unique weapon would get a unique sound contact.

Yes, I did think that! Really, I thought that it would be cool if the "Infantry?" identified unit listed for you everything which was known or suspected about that unit. It seems like we either know nothing, or everything. I mean, within the limits of EFOW.

But it could be like this:

Infantry/AntiTank Team?

Dragunov xP15 AntiTank Rifle?

AK47

I'm just making up that AT rifle, of course, but the point is, the unit who encountered that enemy thought maybe they heard the Dragunov, and they definitely heard the AK47, so it has no question mark.

It would also be neat if Veterans were more likely to be able to identify the weapons from sound or muzzle flash or what have you, and Green guys just knew that something wicked this way comes...

Whaddayathink?

Eden

[akdavis]

In the same scenario, I received immediate sound contacts on 37mm PAKs after they had fired only one shot. The locations were a bit off, and I only got "AT Gun?" indicated on the contact, but at least I had an idea of where the fire was coming from and could react accordingly. I've had the same problem with mortars firing repeatedly within 100m of my troops, but only being identified by an "Infantry?" sound contact. I can sure as hell hear the mortars firing, but apparently my guys think that might actually be a sub-machinegun making that sound. Oh well, its a trivial concern, but it does strike me as a bit unrealistic. Just play a few rounds of America's Army: Operations and watch how quickly you learn to distinguish between the sounds of the different weapons firing. Hell, soldiers in WWI learned to tell the size and direction of incoming rounds just by their sound. Being able to distinguish between the sounds of rifles, machineguns, mortars and AT rifles seems like nothing in comparison. Granted, I only play in EFOW, so I'm not sure how sound contacts are handled in lesser FOW. I'm too in love with how visual spotting is realistically handled in EFOW to stop using it, I just wish sound contacts could provide more realistic information.