Kwacker Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I'm playing a virtually all armor PBEM as the reds and we are about 5 turns into it with lots of (nervous) manouvering. Last turn I received an extra T34 platoon quite forward on my left flank maybe 50m in from the map edge. The platoon is in a fairly open area and it is daytime with good visability. Ah-ha I think we'll do some sneaky manouvering and outflank the bad guys - should put the wind up'em. So I plot a 100m or so of movement to some decent firing locations on the chance some rear echelon targets may appear. I get about 5 seconds into the following movie when a platoon of Pz IIIs almost instantly appears at about 120m, 90 degrees to my direction of movement, nicely lined up for a turkey shoot. Result 4 dead T-34s and lots of chuckling members of the super-race. Now, maybe what happened was the German platoon was a reinforcement on the same turn, maybe not, either way surely my unbuttoned T-34 platoon should be aware of another platoon of tanks 120m away in broad daylight with no LOS obstruction? Seems to me the "reinforcement code" does not determine what the reinforcemnts can immediately see when they are teleported onto the map. That or the reinforcements are taken out into a field blindfolded, spun around 3 times and the blindfold removed. Anyone else think this might be a bug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 ISTR something along these lines coming up in BO. The suggestion was made then that reinforcements should enter the map behind some kind of concealing terrain whenever possible. This gives them a chance to plot at least one turn before they get massacred. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 The reinforcement code doesn't take anything other that place and time of arrival into account. You should blame the scenario designer, not the game programmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted October 31, 2002 Author Share Posted October 31, 2002 Surely the correct solution - to mitigate mistakes like this by scenario designers - would be to determine what enemy units are in LOS of any reinforcements and display them prior to plotting the reinforcements first moves. I never encountered this problem in CMBO (maybe I was lucky) but it may also be that the problem is aggravated by EFOW. I've no idea if this could be fixed in a patch or has to wait to CMII - have BTS commented on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 1: It could be EFOW. If those PZIIIs had not moved and were in cover, you might not see them until they open fire. 2: More likely it was reinforcement teleportation effects. I must point out that even if the designer goes to great lengths to set things up so the reinforcements dont show up in line of sight, players will often do things thought to be impossible, dumb or very unlikely and throw that balance off. It is especially hard on small maps where you have to very little room to work. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Originally posted by Kwacker: I've no idea if this could be fixed in a patch or has to wait to CMII - have BTS commented on this?I don't think this is a game problem but rather a scenario design problem. When I make scenarios with reinforcements I just take care that the reinforcements enter the map at points where likely enemy units won't have LOS to. Usually not that difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 It's a game problem!!!!!! Are we in denial???? The LOS of reinforcements needs to be checked and enemy locations updated before plotting intitial moves. The tank platoon was 120m away in broad daylight in the open!!!! Yes scenario designers should avoid this situation but they are never going to 100% so the underlying problem - teleportation - should be mitigated as far as possible. Checking LOS would really help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I reported a similar problem with reinforcements in CMBO quite a while ago. I was playing the Germans in the Wittmann scenario and was annoyed when my Panzer IV appeared on turn 10(?) in the open surrounded by British tanks. I recall it lasted about five seconds. I think reinforcements should appear at a friendly map edge and move from there. This may give their owner more control over the reinforcements than the scenario designer might prefer, but it would avoid having reinforcements appear in totally impossible positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Originally posted by Kwacker: The LOS of reinforcements needs to be checked and enemy locations updated before plotting intitial moves. The tank platoon was 120m away in broad daylight in the open!!!! Yes scenario designers should avoid this situation but they are never going to 100% so the underlying problem - teleportation - should be mitigated as far as possible. Checking LOS would really help.And then what? Are the units magic moved out of sight? If so, to where? Or do they fail to come on because simply because someone can see them? I belong to the "it's a scenario design problem" school of thought. The onus is on the designer to minimise the chance of this happening. Appearing at a map edge is common sense in the vast majority of cases, although I can think of exceptions (eg reinforcements who have been woken up in a barracks). There will always be a chance of weird things happening, but they can be minimised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 the long answer is, it's both a game problem and a scenario designer problem. i just did a test where i put a german tank directly in front of a reinforcement area. when the russian tanks "beamed in", the german could see all 3 russian tanks, but the russians could see nothing until the action phase started. this is definitely a game shortcoming, but that being the case, the designer should be aware of it and have reinforcement arrive out of line of site of probable enemy positions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted November 2, 2002 Author Share Posted November 2, 2002 Brian, All I'm requesting is that the reinforcements get an initial "look-see" to determine what is around them before you have to plot your first move. No need for magic or changing the scenario designers intent by moving them - they are there because they were supposed to be. Simply give them a fair chance to fight by checking LOS around them so that you don't have to plot their first orders blind (unless an existing fiendly unit happens to be in the same place). I can't think of a situation where that would be unrealistic - except maybe when a garrison force wakes up suddenly from 8 hours of deep slumber with no sentries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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