Rubble

[Fionn]

Cortes,

After a couple of abortive initial attempts the Germans never seriously tried to storm Leningrad. They tried to subdue it via siege. Perhaps you meant Stalingrad? Although if that is what you meant then I would point out that 62nd Army didn't pack the western bank of the river with troops but, rather, only sent over the minimum necessary to hold ( for logistics and force concentration in the face of artillery barrage reasons).

As to Peng: Do not question the Peng . It is a strange tradition which has grown up on this forum and is propagated by a bunch of mostly old-timers. Generally they leave everyone else alone and that's usually the best way to have things . It is all in good jest and the old-time Pengers are universally a good bunch of people.

Hell, I'm even an honorary Knight of the Pool ( complete with bolding and all) . I believe I'm also on tap to "fight" any challenges against the Pool although since I would actually try to win such games the Pool would probably disown me .

[Walker]

Fionn, that is a gracious reply and a most lucid outline of the OODA loop. I'm going to take it to bed with me and chew on it. If I have any comments or questions I'll post tomorrow. Thank you!

[Fionn]

Chris,

It is always a pleasure to answer a nicely asked question. For your information I may not be around very much for the next 3 or 4 days but whenever I am around I'll reply to any further questions and comments from you and others in full.

[Edward_the_Surly]

I know I certainly enjoyed reading it, thanks again Fionn

[Dirtweasle]

Here is a link that might be useful; Boyd Loop

I'm not sure though that the concept is that complex, or difficult to comprehend.

It should almost be intuitive that to be able to get "inisde" your opponents decision making cycle is a very desirable thing. The trick, IMO, is making it happen!

[Walker]

Dirtweasel has it spot on. Once the basic concept is clearly explained, as in Fionn’s post above, ooda (you’d think they would have come up with a smarter acronym) becomes a glaringly obvious path to success not just in a military context. It would seem to apply to a range of real-life situations. For example, in a debate I reckon success will fall to the person who ‘gets inside the other chap’s loop’, perhaps by anticipating his next argument before he can roll it out and thus keeping him off balance. Of course, and again as Dirtweasel remarks, the problem is making it happen. A sharp mind backed by the necessary information would definitely be a Good Thing.

The reason ooda can, at first glance, look so overwhelmingly intricate in a military context can probably be attributed to the fact that complex systems have to be evolved to sort through the mass of information a commander has to deal with. Fortunately for us CM players, the amount of data we are required to process is comparatively tiny, so getting swamped by reports from the battlefield is not a problem (at least in my limited experience). And again as mentioned before, I’m sure most of us CMers wittingly or unwittingly apply some or all of the ooda principles in our battles. Speaking for myself, I greatly appreciate having a framework on which to base my gameplay now (thanks again Fionn!). This means paying more attention to putting the right units in the right places to observe the enemy, giving more thought to why he’s doing whatever he’s doing, having more facts to base your conclusions (or hunches) on and being able to act on them sooner. Of course, whether or not this newly-acquired knowledge will make me a better player remains to be seen…

And I think this hula hoop sorry ooda loop discussion would actually deserve its own thread. We seem to have hijacked this one, which started life as a question re city combat. Apologies to Cortes.

[Cortes]

As a decent debator, that's actually quite true, from my expierence. You go in as well prepared as possible but need to be willing to divert from a plan to seize victory.. hopefully not a Kiev.

The key to debate is to think quickly and act quickly. Talking fast is what has gotten me countless wins, whereas my opponents look absurdly stupid when asking me to repeat things, and judges tend to scoff on pesky 'repeats', as they take up time.

And I started when I was ten!

[Fionn]

Quick comment:

The OODA loop applies in every field of humanity where you have to make decisions. It is a big deal in all of these business training courses( right up there with misrepresentations of The Art of War) seemingly.

As to it being simple:

Well, basic tactics are simple ( don't walk into the open in front of MGs, try to use cover etc) but when you actually try to put them all together and implement them in-game things get very complex and you have to be very good to be able to wring an advantage out of them. You also see lots of people who should know better sending troops out into open fields covered by fire. The stress of a tactical situation makes strange things happen.

The OODA loop is the same. Everyone instinctually knows something like it exists, a few actually understand what an OODA loop is but only a small section of those who know what it is can actually capitalise on it.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Fionn:

...when you actually try to put them all together and implement them in-game things get very complex...

Amen! and pass the ammo!

Have to make it part and parcel to how you play is how I'm thinking. ...and to go back to an earlier comment it is very much about practice. Getttng past the basic tactics and more into a "style" of play that achieves the results.

[Walker]

Originally posted by Cortes:

[QB]

...

The key to debate is to think quickly and act quickly. Talking fast is what has gotten me countless wins, whereas my opponents look absurdly stupid when asking me to repeat things, and judges tend to scoff on pesky 'repeats', as they take up time.

...

QB]

Cortes, that’s not quite what I meant. Whilst I realise that you have to do what you have to do to win in court, in the example I suggested in my previous post I was thinking more along the lines of using the principles of ooda to help bring to bear on the debate the resources at your disposal, in an appropriate sequence and at the right time. It’s a bit difficult to explain, but I wasn’t contemplating a debate in which glossy tactics and fast footwork come out on top of facts and soundly based arguments.

[Cortes]

Oh! An attack upon my integrity!

Trust me- if one based all of their arguments simply upon sound fact, and allowed for no speculation, debate would not exist. In fact, I challenge you to find a man (or woman) who can say that, if they do, when they argued they did so with no thought to their speech or their manner.

[Walker]

No no no, Cortes. Not an attack on your integrity. I surely don't know you well enough for that! But it could be seen as an attack on court practice, of which I have just had a Very Bad Experience. Maybe if I'd had you as my representative... But we'd better close this topic pdq otherwise this thread will get locked pdq too!

[Little Mouse]

This is a most interesting topic!

I wish to contribute another view to liberating temporarily occupied territories from the hands of hated aggressor.

When trying to liberate a town/village, send an average Coy to penetrate the centre of the town. With some luck their losses will not exceed 50%. However, this will open a second front for the occupier. In theory, that would mean that their troops are now double-encircled (from the outside and from the inside), creating a sandwich effect, crippling troop movement within the town etc., etc., etc. Of course, the remains of the storming Coy have no other purpose but to cause great annoyance for the occupier - they are not there to do any more "real" fighting.

[Walker]

First of all, welcome to the board (apparently this is your second post). BTW, what is a 'Finished Artist'?

And your idea sounds interesting - have you used it against a reasonably good (human) player and if so, what happened?

[Little Mouse]

Walker, thank you for your reply. As your questions are kinda personal, I will respond by mail.

[Fionn]

Mouse,

Another way of looking at that is that you've just sent a company into the middle of an enemy held town and now THAT company is encircled .

All encirclement is in the eye of the beholder and more a reflection of aggressiveness and attitude than actual reality on the ground.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Cortes:

Also, what's Peng mean?

Yes. I am a noob. All it looks like to me is a nonsense post.

Peng? Study Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Nonsense? It is

[Splash]

Originally posted by Fionn:

All encirclement is in the eye of the beholder and more a reflection of aggressiveness and attitude than actual reality on the ground.

Just think of the game GO

[Redwolf]

It still nags me what would work best in practice.

Like one defender gets a good city map, sets up one defense setup in th editor, the scenario goes to a neutral party who inserts the attacker's forces, tournament-saves it and off 4 PBEMs or so go.

[Walker]

There's a great 30-movie town attack complete with AARs here:

Rugged Defense Tournament Movies

Well worth the download time!

[Little Mouse]

Originally posted by Pillar:

The problem is that you don't always have the time or the resources to do that. Furthermore, military problems have to be subordinated to political issues. Destroying a small town building by building may not be an option.

Thank you very much!!!

In lines above you have touched two very important issues most players choose to ignore. Time and Politics.

Now, imagine you report to J.V. Stalin and he demands red flag on top of Reichstag by 1 May 1945. I am sure you would do anything possible to perform. Today, it is the casualties that worry Army commanders. During WWII it was only Victory at (almost) any cost that counted.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Pillar:

...like it was said in Aliens, "I say we just nuke the thing from orbit." Ultimately if your goal is simply "victory" in the sense of eliminating your enemy, this is efficient.

Talk about a compressed OODA loop!

[Louie the Toad]

Call me a traditionalist or a minimalist but it seems to me that ooda is

1. "Get there firstest with the mostest"

2. Then refine from that maxim to fit the circumstance. (for example: the mostest can mean the most units or the most fire power or the most eyeballs)

KISS a Toad

[Walker]

Little Mouse, your mail address doesn't work any more. Four returns over the past three days.

[xerxes]

The OODA loop is really a lot more than concentration of force. Part of Boyds theory is to defeat the enemy mentally be confusing him. In particular by presenting multiple threats while denying the enemy intel. Some of his ideas don't apply to CM because there is only 1 enemy but a lot of his theory does apply.

If you're facing an opponent and you can tell what he's doing, then your OODA loop is intact. If you're facing an opponent and it seems like he has forces everywhere then he's probably inside your OODA loop. I think the loop applies more to scenarios than to QBs. In QBs you have a fair amount of intel just because it's a QB. In a scenario you are starting with much more of a blank slate.

-marc s