HVAP Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 This is another "I'm sure this has already been covered posts" What are the + varients are they field modifications or what? Also how common were they? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 They have extra plates of armor welded on the front. They're pretty uncommon and I don't think you can get them till very late 44 or 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 It's all explained here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by Captain Wacky: They have extra plates of armor welded on the front.And sides. If you look at some photos of Shermans (the ones with the welded hulls) you may spot a rectangular piece of armor steel attached to the hull side just aft of the drivers' positions. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Late production models had this armor incorporated at the factory and not as add on plates. By WW2 end the standard Sherman A3 factory model had a wide range of improvements that came right from the factory, including HVSS, 47 degree bow, one peice armor, improved gyros, 76mm gun, wet stroage, thicker armor, reworked turret basket, wide tracks, grousers, and Ford engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by Slapdragon: By WW2 end the standard Sherman A3 factory model had a wide range of improvements that came right from the factory, including HVSS, 47 degree bow, one peice armor, improved gyros, 76mm gun, wet stroage, thicker armor, reworked turret basket, wide tracks, grousers, and Ford engine.Air conditioning and stereo optional... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Pardon my ignorance, but when I see the word "grouser", images of a small, silly-looking game bird spring to mind. Anyone care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by Chupacabra: Pardon my ignorance, but when I see the word "grouser", images of a small, silly-looking game bird spring to mind. Anyone care to elaborate?Track extensions that made a tank's ride better by increasing the "float" of the tracks. They look like someone has taken a little row of spare track and added it to the regular track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 So, does anyone ever use the + tanks? I never do, in my experience the only real benefit you get from them is against StuGs and Pz IVs, and the +'s aren't allowed in Fionn's rule of short-75s, so they never really have a chance to make the extra armor useful. Better to save a couple points and just get vanilla sherms or cheap 76mm sherms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 The W+ armor is pretty tough stuff. It will stop 88 rounds, not just 75s. Even Schrecks can have trouble with it, from the front. The thing is, the turret is still the same 89mm vertical armor, easily penetrated by all heavy German AT weapons. So while the hull improvement is major, the tank as a whole can still be killed from the front aspect - especially if hull down. This means the tactics of exploiting the front plate are much trickier, and more limited, than the best German types, heavy Churchills, or Jumbos. If you have 76mm and T ammo (or the right range or facing), you can afford to risk them against German heavies, counting on hull hits being more likely on you, and your own ability to kill them back. But if you can only kill them with hits on particular plates, the odds are no better than even. The real drawback of them is that you pay as much as Germans do for Tigers or Panthers, and then don't get armor that goes all the way. The Jumbo, while less common historically (only 254 built), don't cost much more and has much better protection. In pure game min-maxing terms, then, you can be better off either going all the way to the Jumbo. But historically, one of the + varieties as a point tank for a platoon would be reasonably common, while true Jumbos would be rare. If Jumbos are banned, they are a reasonable substitute even in game terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 I was under the understanding that the W shermans were the ones with welded armour hence, the W. And the + were the ones with the factory added armour *note to Americans: humour, armour, and colour all have u's in them! get it right yanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Shadow, I believe that the W refers to Wet stowage for the ammo. Regards JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Originally posted by JonS: Shadow, I believe that the W refers to Wet stowage for the ammo. Regards JonSThen why do the W all have more armour than the non-W versions of the same tank? This is probably all explained in the manual...if only it weren't on the top shelf.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Originally posted by JasonC: The W+ armor is pretty tough stuff. It will stop 88 rounds, not just 75s. Even Schrecks can have trouble with it, from the front. The thing is, the turret is still the same 89mm vertical armor, easily penetrated by all heavy German AT weapons. So while the hull improvement is major, the tank as a whole can still be killed from the front aspect - especially if hull down. This means the tactics of exploiting the front plate are much trickier, and more limited, than the best German types, heavy Churchills, or Jumbos. I seem to recall from one of those CM unit databases that some of the "+" models actually have better hull armor than the Jumbo. No references, I'm at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAP Posted February 26, 2002 Author Share Posted February 26, 2002 Shadow the only armoUr we americans know are armour hotdogs, hotdogs armour hotdogs - of course im sure you guys have some weird saying for hotdogs that equals out not having the U. Thanks for all the info guys, I learn more here than I do in school, of course school forces me out into the sun, maybe i should get a laptop so i can play CM outside, nah a extension cords cheaper. Thanks again all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Incidentally, there are a couple of articles on the Sherman here, written by Dan “dano6” Kowaleski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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