Biltongs Campaign Rules for CMBB - 41 South ready for action

[Scooby2003]

Latest update on my site...

(current as of Sunday Nov. 24)

Scooby's Site

[Max BrauHaus]

Is that a "Grease" reference I see (hear) on the CM Boards?

I think Brent is right in his suggestion that we take the total points the player is going to be allowed to buy (Core + Scrounged + Aux), and divide it my the appropriate multiplier for the Battle Type (Axis Assault, Axis Attack, Axis Probe, etc.). This would make the Force Size value you place in the QB less than you will actually end up being allowed to buy by the QB. Because the QB itself applies a modifier.

Then based on the setting the player puts in for his own skill level (equivalent to Easy, Medium, and Hard on other lesser games ) we decide on some additional value to divide the Force Size by.

Example:

Conscript Player in an Axis Assault rolls 984 total points. You should normally then select 1000 point size. By Brent's #s, the QB will allow you to purchase 1700 points (as does the AI), but the current rules allow only the player to buy 984. So you are right away out numbered by nearly 2.

Instead, we could take 984/1.7 = (reaches for calculator) 579. Then we multiply that by the Player Experience modifier (for Conscript = 1) to get 579 (did that one w/o the calculator ). The Force Size setting would be 700.

Now the QB allows the player 1190 points, of which he can use 984. The AI gets 700 points, so the player still has the advantage, but a lesser advantage than normal. That doesn't take into account the possible Handicap against the player as well.

The multipliers would have to worked out to get the right balance.

[Apache]

Whether it's a big issue or not I don't know but I've tried a few roll-up forces and find I get seriously outgunned quite a lot, and I mean seriously. I know it's easy to just improvise etc. but it may be something worth a check.

It's mainly to do with arty.

Worst example is the meeting engagement where (without using the modifiers suggested as above, which I think would probably be worth further exploration) I racked up 300 arty points out of a toatl 1037. It was therefore a 1250 point ME and I was only allowed to pick about 175 points worth of arty. Not sure whether I should have spent the other 125 on other stuff or not but this would throw out those scores too. As a result I didn't spend the other points and only purchased around 912 points worth. I was undergunned enough as it is but losing that 125 hurt me even more I bactracked and tried a 1000 point force but that again dropped my arty max to around 125. It may only be MEs that are the problem. Perhaps it needs a 'if ME spend any remainder on .....'

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the less balanced scenarios these rules create and the enjoyment of the game is increased a lot. I'd just prefer that the odds weren't REALLY heavily stacked against me all the time (and having not played the rules enough yet I don't know if they would be).

I also wonder, is it worth including any kind of major offensive initiative which players can choose to use or not (e.g. your force supports 1-2 other companies and some armour etc. to assault a major position)? Maybe 1 battle in 5-7, or throw a 10 and it's a major offensive, spearhead or support role you play. Perhaps another roll for spearhead/support, 8> and it's the former (unlucky).

[ November 24, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Apache]

One last thing, not sure if I'm missing something here but......

To get a greater sense ownership of my company I stick with the one type throughout the campaign. At the moment it's SS Mech Coy for instance. As such, I don't bother rolling up those Axis parameters.

I don't use the QB Aux Force generator either. I go straight to main battle. I select SS Mech in Force type so when the options come up I only get those that BTS researched for SS Mech. I then buy my Aux forces, as per the points rolled up, by merely selecting whatever I want within the categories available for the ponts available. Then I buy my core. Now (I am a bit tired so the brain is a bit frazzed), is there a very big 'Yeah...but...' that I've missed by doing it this way, something I'm missing out on?

[SuperSulo]

Apache, Yeah... but...

You ARE supposed to stick to one type of company (as long as it excist, or until you want to change). That other type you roll up, it's just for your aux/scrounged units. I have no idea if it's realistic or not, but I had a great time when my German Mech Infantry company was to support an attack on a town, conducted by Hungarian Mountain troops!

So, the rolled up Force Mix, Nationality and Division Type is for your Aux force, not core force.

[SuperSulo]

Oh and Apache, (doing this in the reverse),

on that "outgunned" topic, if you think that your meeting engagement was bad, how does an assault with a 3:20 force ratio sound? It could happen...

I believe this is being looked into.

[Snarker]

Downloads as well as HTML view here:

CMBB 41 South campaign rules

[buckshyesh]

Max,

I just downloaded the auto parameter file. It a thing of beauty!

Please note that I was checking out some of your calcs, and found that some of your month modifiers refer to cell "L21" instead of "L22", such as the formulae in cells "v40-42".

B

[JaegerMeister]

I like the sound of that 'spearhead/assault support that Apache suggests, by throwing a 10 or at a certain point, ie every 5 battles or something. I mean this campaign is starting in 1941, Barbarossa Offensive, yet i do feel a little like i'm fighting just small unit actions, which are great, but would be good to feel part of a bigger picture in some battles, ie your company is assigned to capture the high ground/village on the left flank, whilst the main force assaults 'x' objective centre and right, or your infantry company is to support an armour attack on ....

I think this would be a great addition to the rules.

edit to add:- RE Artillery support, i think i may be doing something wrong, as in my first two battles (1 attack,1 M.E.) i seem to have a real lack of arty, yet i think in the rules it mentions that a modifier had been added to get extra smoke/arty availability to help the conscript/green troops in open terrain? Anyone else struggled to get decent arty support? In the attack battle, my points added up to give air support, could i have used some of those to get arty instead of all air?

[ November 25, 2002, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: JaegerMeister ]

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by Biltong:

Sardaukar - That's the idea If these Rules work as they should anyone should be able to modify them to their taste...

Your modifications sound good - a lot of guys will be interested to hear if you get it right.

Maybe have a look at Decreasing Arty/Air & Fortification points as well...

Some time in the future I want to have a look at giving some favor for killing Inf - you might need this - want to have a look at it and come up with some suggestions?

Will like to hear how it goes

Biltong[/QB]

I have spare time ..so I'll have a look what I can add to enjoyment. I have been playing 4 tank core for 5 battles now. It's been hell of a ride . Just when I thought I might get something upgraded, I lost 3 out of 4 of my core... Fortunes or war .

I think your rules are very capable to be adapted to full armoured core, up to 10 tanks maybe. I'd recommend having 4-5 tank core, but more can be handled by just upping aux forces.

Modifiers to battle types, enemy, and aux forces can handle it easily. I think best benefit of armoured core is that one can buy vehicles/tanks separately and thus modify them without going to editor. That makes it bit faster and automated.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Sardaukar]

BTW, it's not restricted to tanks...other vehicles can be used as core too...recon armoured cars, halftracks and so on, but I guess tanks and assault guns are most fun.

Cheers,

M.S.

[desim8]

bump

[Apache]

Super Sulo,

I thought constantly changing your core company was weird. Perhaps the core force explanation needs to make it clear? Just in case anyone else is half asleep like me

That said, I still dispense with the Aux Force randomised unit type, preferring to stick with the Aux that a SS Mech Infantry coy would be likely to get in reality. That's just a personal preference for wanting it realistic of course (ish) but again, might be worth flagging up as an option for those who want to go that route. Might attract even more of the historical die hards to the rules.

General

I think the rolled up 'major action' every now and then would also help attract those that like the idea of the rules but just don't want to be saddled with just one company + aux for 30-50 battles.

On the arty front, the more I think about it the more I think it is linked to the suggested force size modifiers that need to be considered. If your force was not REALLY heavily outgunned, because the defender did not have such a massive point advantage in some cases, the loss of 125 or so from your arty roll-up (because the scenario would not let you buy that much) may not be such a problem, you would probably (hopefully) have a better chance with the forces you did have?

Finally, is it worth looking at the aux values at all? Some of the values seem very low and, while I haven't researched it fully yet, I'm not sure you could actually buy anything at all armor wise for the lowest points you can roll, even if you could, would it be worth it? Same applies to some extent with infantry/support. Is it worth looking at what the lowest reasonable points you need to buy something, setting the lowest at that and working up? (This might have already been done of course in which case I'll zip it ).

If, and I mean if, they were looked at, is it worth throwing in an occasional random freebie (you get a platoon of stugs/tanks etc. etc.) every now and then? Not often, but again, something which may spruce up the campaign for some if they want to go for a long one. This, and any kind of major force action, could be triggered in the auto parameter sheet and could be linked to an entered battle number at the top, say a possibility of it occurring (or even a certainty?) somewhere between minimum of every 5 battles and max of 10, so it changes. I accept players can do this anyway if they like of course without it being in the rules. May be worth a look for the rules though? Again, wider appeal?

[ November 25, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Some great discussions/ideas/nude girls etc above.. But I'm not going to join in

Busy modifying maps - great fun!

Just popped in to say I am here and I am taking note... keep them coming.

I like what's happening - the whole idea of BCR was that they should enable players to (easily) modify them to the Players Taste...

I think Sardaukar is setting the pace here... Try a modification, test it, and when it works spread the news

As for the maps looking good - not great yet, but good - and (I think) a hell of a lot better than the QB maps - should add some spice and open up a new front to BCR

C'ya later

Biltong

[ November 25, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Apache]

I am playing by sticking to SS Mech as above. I use 1 core infantry co and use a platoon of 3 x Stug III. Pushes core to 637. Working out well so far.

DEFINITELY think this multiplier for working out the points in the parameters will redress the balance a little so we are not sold short. So far I've been able to afford very little Aux other than a a couple of 221 A/Cs, couple of HMGs and an 81mm mortar spotter in most of the battles Core force has HAD to do the brunt of the work. I'm just glad I wasn't facing Soviet armored last time around. I think they had about 8 million points of infantry, I'd have got obliterated

BTW Biltong - Word doc e-mailed to you re some points.

[ November 25, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[SuperSulo]

I'm not sure what you mean with a "major event"? Even bigger battles? In my first 4 battles I had 3000, 2000, 1500, 2000 in Force Size, that's pretty big to me. But then I didn't play completely by the rules, I bought up to Force Size * battle type modifier (ie 1.5 for attack and so on).

[SuperSulo]

Some more ideas on how to do the Force Size/Purchase Points:

a) Scrap the whole AUXILIARY FORCE SIZE CALCULATIONS (28-34), just roll up Force Mix, Nationality, Division Type and how much Aux Forces you get, from say 0(!) - 3000. Then let the Auto QB buy what it wants for you from the current Force Mix. If you get Force Mix "Infantry only", tough, no armor besides your own.

Keep the AUXILIARY FORCE SIZE CALCULATIONS but call it AUXILIARY FORCE RATIO CALCULATIONS. To get the actual points of a specific Aux category, say "infantry/support 200", divide 200 with Purchase Point Total * "Modified Force Size" (1.5 for attack and so on). Then buy the units the "normal" way. This way you keep the fun with rolling up your Aux force, but don't get so "outgunned".

c) A combo of a) and . You get the actual Force Size by rolling it up as in a), but still do the AUXILIARY FORCE RATIO CALCULATIONS from , where "Modified Force Size" is using your rolled up Force Size. Wow, that sentence was quite a handfull, hope I didn't lose ALL of you .

In all three versions you can make the battles more or less "uneven" with the Handicap roll (both positive and negative, allied and axis).

Right now I'm testing version a). I haven't got far yet, been busy with other, less important/less fun stuff...

[KG_AGCent]

I hope you can help a newcomer.

So I am sitting at the kitchen table trying to make heads or tails of this list of randomness I am engaged in. Trucking along just fine making rolls, not sure why most of the time, but just doing as I am told by the sheets and I run into Sections 18 thru 25.

What are these used for? I thought I could pick my own Core units or at least had them already assigned in Note 4.

What then are Sections 28 thru 34 used for?

Am I supposed to print out the Battle Parameter sheet and write on it or am I supposed to enter or somehow electronically "tick" the box in some manner unknown to me?

Does electronic entry (typing it in on your keyboard) on the Battle Paramenters sheet have and formulaic ramifications on other sheets (Parameters sheet for example)?

Why does my head hurt?

Why do the clowns want to eat me?

Seriously, I think there is a lot of knowledge that is assumed causing a learning curve for those of us of a lesser breeding stock. I have, in fact, taken the time to read all 8 frikin' pages of this thread and it has answered a few of my questions, but there is very little that I know that I know, a lot that I know that I don't know and even more that I don't know that I don't know.

I have both brain cells rubbing together feverishly and I know that I am just not connecting a few dots here and there. When they do finally connect, I am sure the AHAAA! will render me, mercifully, into a vegetative state.

Please Help!

AG, out.

[ November 25, 2002, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: KG_AGCent ]

[Scooby2003]

Originally posted by KG_AGCent:

I run into Sections 18 thru 25.

What are these used for? I thought I could pick my own Core units or at least had them already assigned in Note 4. .

These sections determine the TYPE of auxillary force you will have....

Originally posted by KG_AGCent:

What then are Sections 28 thru 34 used for?

Am I supposed to print out the Battle Parameter sheet and write on it or am I supposed to enter or somehow electronically "tick" the box .

These sections determine how many POINTS you can spend on Auxillary troops in each area using the TYPE of force indicated in 18 - 25. Yes, you are supposed to print out the sheet and record the info...then you enter it into the QB.

Anything else? Ask away!

Hope this helps!

Scooby!

[ November 25, 2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Scooby2003 ]

[Shifty 101]

I run into Sections 18 thru 25.

What are these used for?

These sections are used for producing your Auxiliary force. Your Aux force is a force you buy just for this battle ALONG WITH your core force, more men for the meat grinder. What you do here is roll your die and find out what force mix, nationality, division type, fitness, casualties, ammunition, and if your troops can travel through the sewers. After doing this and checking off the appropriate boxes,you move on to see how many points you can use to buy the AUX forces.

What then are Sections 28 thru 34 used for?

Sections 28-34 are used to find out how many points you can use to buy your Aux force. Here you roll a die to obtain the numbers for inf/support, vehical, armor, arty/air, and fortifications if defending. After getting those numbers, and adding them to your core force which starts at 560 something, you'll get a number. This number will lead you to select your force size. if your total force Aux force+Core force is, say, 975, you would check off the 1000 core force box. If you got a total force size of 1550, you would check box 2000 and so on.

After doing this you still have a few more die rolls before you can actually create your Aux force. After finishing up these last few steps, you start up CMBB, start a QB and enter in all of your battle parameters. For the option of "Force Size" you use the number you obtained earlier (700, 800, 900, 1000, 1250, 1500, 2000, 3000, or 5000!). Also make sure you put your force mix, nationality, division type, fitness, casualties, and ammunition (Quality set to random) and allow the computer to select your forces. Make sure you have all the parameters entered correctly then run the QB filling in the right options with what you generated with your trusty 10 sided diefor the map. After entering the setup phase you'll be met with a bunch of units that the computer bought for you with your parameters. Now you have to go through and write in what forces you were blessed with on the top of the parameters sheet. What I do is just choose the main ones such as tanks, arty spotters, inf company/squads, ect. Say I get a Rifle 41 Company, I'll write "Rifle 41 sq" before the x and after I'll write "Crack" or whatever thier exp is. Now you have to hit alt+a and exit the game, generate another QB with your parameters, but this time set your force mix, division tyoe and all of that good stuff to unrestricted and allow yourself to purchase your force instead of the AI this time. Also, note some of the talk about the force modifiers and depending on if your assaulting you might want to lower your force size so you arn't overwhelmed. The last step is to ENJOY THIS WORK OF ART!

I'm sure this is confusing as it was for me a week ago when I started so, if you have any questions, shoot away, and if anyone wants to point out any of my errors, go for it, I'm still new to this! Hope this helps more thn it hurts.

Edited to add request:

I know this has been harped on enough and I know your working on it Biltong, but my force is Crack after 6 batles even after I edited the rules to give my men the least exp per battle Other than this the rules work beutifully and is one of the best things to come out of the CM series, thanks a ton Biltong!

[ November 25, 2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Shifty 101 ]

[Scooby2003]

Hey..I've got a question!

I've noticed something a bit odd when filling out the CORE sheet... Doesn't the "Green Motorized Inf. Co" at 343 points have FOUR squads? (fourth being 2 HMG's and a Section HQ) In the core sheet there is room for three squads and I understood that the bottom section above the armor was reserved for scrounged units. Am I missing something?

Obviously, it would be easy just to write them in the vacant spot (since I have no scrounged units) but I think this indicates that I have made a mistake elsewhere...

Thanks!

Scooby!

[ November 25, 2002, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Scooby2003 ]

[Max BrauHaus]

Please note that I was checking out some of your calcs, and found that some of your month modifiers refer to cell "L21" instead of "L22", such as the formulae in cells "v40-42".

I think what you are looking at are some month calculations that are dependent on not just the month, but also the week of the month. L21 is the week. It is used in a HLOOKUP to determine which column of a table you find the right data in. In the same formula you should see L22+1, which is the row (or month).

[Max BrauHaus]

I know this has been harped on enough and I know your working on it Biltong, but my force is Crack after 6 batles even after I edited the rules to give my men the least exp per battle

I'm glad you are having such good luck. I keep getting my rear handed to me by the AI as I follow the current Force Size guidelines. Sheesh!

[Apache]

Super Sulo,

The major event is a spearhead or support to a major assault but it's probably only relevant if you stick to the rule generated force size (which I do). I've rarely got above 1,000 so an occassional 2,500 every now and then (not too often) would be useful. I'm not so keen on buying up to the limits on the attack as I'm not sure this defeats some of the object of the rules, e.g. the QB generator allocates the attackers points in a way that will attempt to give a more balanced battle. Thats said, a random roll every now and then which WILL give you a bonus and allow you to buy up to the point limit on assault, attack or probe may be useful.

I think your option c (if I've understood it right) may be a better point option for aux calculation. I've been playing around with this alittle and the way I do it at the moment is:

1) Select core as norm (mine are 693)

2) Generate Aux points as norm

3) I skip the QB Aux generator as I stick to what the game offers me with SS Mech selected as core on parameters (a personal preference)

4) Total up the core and aux as norm and select this as points for the game.

5) If the game is an aassault, attack or probe I multiply my aux points allocated by the rules by 1.72 etc. etc. accordingly to get the actual 'you can purchase' points and then buy up to that value when I actually select the core force.

This way I find I get the benefit of the rules making the game less balanced but don't get completely outgunned all the time (or at least, not outgunned by as much). I still think there needs to be some kind of mechanism built in to allow you occassionally on the assault, attack, probe to generate the type of balanced (or even attacker biased) force so that in some cases you will have superior forces. This probably (AFAIK) reflects the reality a little more for this period of the war too?

Using the system above (5) would also allow you to constantly set your core force purchase points at the base level e.g. 393 whether green, vet, elite etc. but give you the spare points to buy them at the experience they've achieved. That way you don't hand over the benefit of your achievements by constantly upping the purchase points of your force allowing the AI to buy even more!! BUT, and it's a big but, if that is thought to be a good idea, how can we handle it when on the defence (because the points you set in the QB are defender). If you roll up 937 as green and your core is vet you will not have enough to buy the core at vet level if you set points to a 1,000. Not sure there is any way round this except by upping the points which gives the Soviets more anyway. It seems that when defending you are always going to have any experience your troops have gained countered by having to up the points to afford them, thus giving the AI more forces. UNLESS - rules to purchase soviets when they attack, allowing human purchase but AI set up?

[ November 26, 2002, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by Scooby2003:

Hey..I've got a question!

I've noticed something a bit odd when filling out the CORE sheet... Doesn't the "Green Motorized Inf. Co" at 343 points have FOUR squads? (fourth being 2 HMG's and a Section HQ) In the core sheet there is room for three squads and I understood that the bottom section above the armor was reserved for scrounged units. Am I missing something?

Obviously, it would be easy just to write them in the vacant spot (since I have no scrounged units) but I think this indicates that I have made a mistake elsewhere...

Thanks!

Scooby!

There are two different version of the motorized infantry company. One has (Pz) after the battalion and one has (PzG). IIRC you want (Pzg) to get the intended core force. It should have 3 platoons with 4 squads or 4 platoons with 3 squads or something like that and no HMGs.