Question Re: AT Guns in an Offensive Role

[Lurker]

Here is a question for all of you tactical gurus…

I’m in the midst of playing an operation where I am on the advance. The advance is going well, but I am having serious problems using my towed AT guns on the offensive.

During one battle, I had my AT guns set up in what I consider to be good positions. They had limited LOS, but that LOS covered some very important terrain. The problem that I encountered was that the enemy was set up in defensive positions with limited LOS, just like I was. Since I was the one on the attack, I was the one moving into his limited LOS. My AT guns went unused for the entire battle.

Having learned my lesson in the previous battle, I set my AT guns on top of a hill with a panoramic view of the entire battlefield. I suppose that the results of my gun’s placement will be obvious to the more experienced readers of the board. I was able to kill a grand total of three enemy tanks with my two AT guns before enemy fire eliminated my guns.

I’ve examined my AT gun placement, and haven’t been able to find a deployment pattern that allows my AT guns to get in some good shots, yet survive to be used in any follow on battles. If any of y’all happen to have some suggestions, I’d be more than welcome to listen to your wisdom.

-Lurker

[KiwiJoe]

I'd consoder knocking out 3 tanks with 2 AT guns very well done.

[Ksak]

I'd take that trade-off any day.

[X-00]

When i buy ATGs defense or offense I consider them a one for one weapon. If the enemy loses a tank before each is eliminated they are points well spent. If an ATG takes out to AFVs that's cause for celebration.

[Lurker]

I think that I begin to see the problem here…

It appears that I am expecting my AT guns to survive for much longer than is normal. Perhaps I need to reevaluate my AT gun tactics.

Generally, in a defensive role, I place my guns in positions with relatively limited LOS, but try to assure that this LOS covers critical points on the battlefield. Then I place infantry assets in positions to support my AT guns against infantry attacks.

Usually, I am able to kill at least one tank with an AT gun. When I get lucky, I’ll be able to kill two or three tanks. However, unless I am losing the scenario, I can generally keep my AT gun intact.

So y’all are telling my AT guns are expendable, and that I should expect to lose them…

Perhaps I’m putting too much empathy into my game play, but it hurts when I take losses. I make great efforts in order to preserve my forces. I mean, those little pixel men have pixel lives and pixel dreams…

Thanks for the answers.

-Lurker

[109 Gustav]

You may be better off with 37mm flak guns. That way, even if you don't get any tank kills, at least you've bought some insurance against the jabos.

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[Holman]

I think the main issue is whether AT guns have any use at all on the offensive. Since they are limited in mobility and are easily killed when revealed, I would think that they are not much good as part of your main effort. No good defender will allow them to last long if they are set up to cover a main route of advance.

However, they can still be deployed "defensively" in order to limit enemy counterattacks. If the map permits it, you might also place them so that they can cover enemy reinforcement routes or escape routes.

Another use I can think of is to hold them in reserve until you're pretty certain you know the disposition of enemy forces, and then move them to where they can fire on infantry or light armor with impunity.

Suffice to say that AT guns are *not* useful in the reconnaissance role...

Martyr

P.S. And I hear what you're saying about empathy for one's forces. I hate to make an intentionally sacrificial move, even if it will preserve more forces in the long run. I just keep thinking about all those letters I have to write to all those pixel families...

[This message has been edited by Martyr (edited 03-03-2001).]

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Your instincts to preserve your forces are sound, particularly on the attack. Defenders often have to trade gun for tank, because if they do not they lose the gun, a platoon, and the objective. But usually attackers do not need to sacrifice units in roles they are not suited for.

But there is a way to get the effect of your trade, and to increase the survivability of your guns to boot. You almost had it already, only one twist needs to be added to the recipe. Set the guns up on commanding terrain with wide fields of fire, just as you did. Then, instead of dueling on turn one, order them to *hide*.

Next, wait for an occasion where you can do one of two things. Either a time when few enemy gun-armed dohickies are within LOS of your guns - or - a time when tons of enemy are within LOS of your guns and you can also spring tanks etc on them, or such a firefight is already in progress. Call the first "sniping" and the second "the mad minute".

In sniping, you want to pick off 1-2 enemy while they are the only things in LOS. Then see if you take reply. You very well might, from a previously unseen enemy - since you have a wide LOS, many places can see you. If you take such fire, suppress the shooter (e.g. with arty) and if necessary try to move the gun. Smoke the shooter with e.g. a light mortar, if you have to.

In the mad minute, the effect you want is for everybody to be shooting at once, including several of your previously unrevealed guns, from long range. The enemy is less likely to spot your guns firing. He is less likely to know which shooter got which hit. He is more likely to shoot at the closer targets. And you are more likely to finish off all the potential repliers, at one "go".

Everything is as you did it when you got your 2 for 3 trade. Then just add completely flexibility about the decision when to open fire. I hope this is useful.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Martyr:

... they can still be deployed "defensively" in order to limit enemy counterattacks.

This works best against opponents that believe in an offensive defence, with deep counterattacks.

Best is if one can lure the opponent's armour into ones own ATG kill zone...

Works best in larger scale than CM though...

DAK used this tactics repeatedly. Sent out their tanks to locate the enemy. Once the fight started they fell back slowly through a screen of ATGs, then they sped off in a flanking manoeuvre.

The enemy tanks now had powerful ATGs in front of them and DAK tanks on the flank...

Cheers

Olle

[Big Ron]

I just fire and move. Keep the transport near by. 2 pauses and a target order. After 30 secs they start shooting, take out the primary target. next turn attach to truck and run like !"£$ to the next firing position or at least under cover, before arty starts raining down. Sometimes this actually works. If you can kill two tanks per AT gun your points advantage is something around 200-300 to 50-70. Enough to change the battle in your favour.

[Skipper]

I was playing a scenario where american paratroopers have to assault a town, and where germans get armored reinforcements from two directions. My only AT gun arrives as a reinforcement after all this german armor. Fortunately, it has a Jeep to run around.

So, I managed to put that gun in one position, kill a Panther (rear shot from 200 m, the tank was distracted by an airborne squad from another direction); move it across half the battlefield and engage a couple of halftracks.

In reallife, AT guns were often used in offensive - crews were simply rolling them on following the advancing infantry. Their role was to eliminate MG nests, mortars, etc - in other words, a poor man's SPG.

Hey, they even used them like that in urban combat!

[Pak40]

Here's a couple of tips for setting up an AT gun on the offensive.

1. Have your jeep/truck turn away from the enemy before your AT gun disembarks. That way, your gun is already facing the correct direction and wont have to rotate to face the enemy. Don't order the jeep/truck to rotate at the end of a move (the AT gun will disembark before the jeep rotates), instead order the jeep to make a very tight 180 turn at fast speed.

2. If you want to get your AT gun into position without the enemy seeing your move, then smoke the area with offboard mortars. Then move your AT gun into position and hide before the smoke clears. This takes some practice and luck but can be done.

hope this helps.

[therontmoore]

Thanks Pak40 for your tips - I had the same question for both towed AT guns and towed howitzers.

[Kallimakhos]

Yes, I also believe AT guns were often used in offense, good example is the Finnish army during the Continuation War. Hiding, timing by pause and careful positioning of the carrier are good tactics, but there is one major grunt, that I haven't yet seen come up: why guns can't reverse in the game? When you are in a good position behind a crest, taken out a couple of enemy AFV´s but see them coming in dozens, it´s not a good idea to turn around before you can move those few meters to embark your gun on the close by carrier. Turning around you lose the little cover that the gun offers and more importantly precious time when compared to backing down to cover behind the crest and embarking at the same time.

Or am I just missing something here?

Also would love the possibility of crew of KO but funcional gun going back to business, of course judging by various factors like moral, experience etc. Maybe in CM2. You just can't but love those little groups of pixels and hope for occasional bravery beyond duty!

Kallimakhos, the name sez it all.

[Guest Michael emrys]

At guns may not be the greatest thing on offense, but if you have them, it's possible to get some good use out of them.

First off is to protect a flank where you don't want to have to station any armored assets, but you might be subject to an armored counterattack.

Another is to help knock down buildings inhabited by the foe. An AT gun can do this without having to get too close.

Yet another is to rush it down one side of the map (you need a towing vehicle for this) to help cut off the retreat of enemy units trying to escape your main force. By the same token, you can use them to hinder the movement of enemy forces from one flank to another.

Soooo...while it would usually be more desirable to spend the same points on some mortars or MGs, if you have some AT guns sitting around, don't neglect them for offense.

Michael

[Thunderbird Inf Plt Ldr]

AT guns HAVE an important offensive role in the isolation of a battlefield segment, and that role helps them survive! First, figure out where those nasty defensive German armored vehicles probably are, and what section of the battlefield you want to isolate, so you can move through, assault or control an area.

Place AT guns in a hide position with a carefully LIMITED field of fire along an axis that separates your chosen avenue of approach from the other places where the enemy probably has his forces (maybe along a road, or other somewhat narrow open strip, hillside, etc.) Then, when your approach is detected, and the enemy moves his pesky armored vehicles (especially those Panthers and Tigers) to defend the sector of the battlefield you are threatening, Bam!! You light them up as they cross your AT Gun's narrow field of fire. Often, you will get a side shot, important for Kitty training with our (U.S.) guns that cannot usually take them out head-on.

Since the field of fire (and hence, exposure to the view of other enemy firepower) is narrow, there is a good chance your gun lives to brighten the day for other armored vehicles.

The main result of this is that the enemy is severly limited in his ability to relocate his defensive forces to the part of the battlefield you have selected to overwhelm. Your initial 3-1 advantage is now 5-1 to 10-1 where it counts. I don't smoke cigarettes, but I LOVE to smoke Panthers and Tigers.

Thus, one working approact to the use of AT guns on the offensive limits enemy mobility and his ability to react to your attack, it protects the AT guns, increases their effectiveness verses tanks they cannot engage frontally, etc., etc...