Tank commanders

[patboivin]

I was just wondering, isn't it a bit foolish for tank commanders to just sit there in plain view when there are bullets flying all around them?

If I was in one of them only my helmet and my two eyes would stick out. At least I would get some kind of circular shield up there to protect against stray (and not so stray) fire.

Whenever I go up against a tank the first thing I tell my MG teams and squads to do is fire on the tank commander. Snipers must love tank commanders too, easy targets.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin:

I was just wondering, isn't it a bit foolish for tank commanders to just sit there in plain view when there are bullets flying all around them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just an abstraction to make it clearer when an AFV is unbuttoned, IIRC. In reality, drivers would not be sticking their heads out at all.

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Andreas

[Jeff Heidman]

I remember reading that the Israelis had a standing policy that tank commanders be unbuttoned in combat, presuambly so they could see better and better direct their vehicles.

Needless to say, this resulted in a lot of casualties, so I think they dropped the idea.

It illustrates the point however. Sure, it is a lot safer inside the hull, but you cannot see very much.

Jeff Heidman

[Philistine]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

I remember reading that the Israelis had a standing policy that tank commanders be unbuttoned in combat, presuambly so they could see better and better direct their vehicles.

Needless to say, this resulted in a lot of casualties, so I think they dropped the idea.

It illustrates the point however. Sure, it is a lot safer inside the hull, but you cannot see very much.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James Dunnigan, in his book "How to Make War" commented on this Israeli doctrine, he said something to the effect of:

"You win a lot of battles but you lose a lot of tank commanders."

--Philistine

[Fionn]

Winning the battle is FAR more important than the lives of a few TCs.

It's a LOT easier to replace a few dozen TCs than a few dozen tanks in wartime.

It's not a nice fact for Westerners ( unaccustomed to the reality that war = mucho death) but it is true.

I ALWAYS unbutton. It costs me a few TCs now and then but on the whole the advantages outweigh the costs.

[R-Man]

There are two problems with staying unbuttoned all the time. The first is, you tend to lose your TC just when he’s lining up a shot against enemy armor, and the ensuing shock of the crew keeps them from firing. Before you know it, you’re brewed up without even defending yourself. The second problem is not focusing on armored threats quickly enough when they appear. If I know there’s armor in the neighborhood, I will stay buttoned up so that the tanker immediately targets the enemy tank when spotted. Aren’t you sick of losing tanks because the TC was more interested in targeting an AT team some 5oo+ meters away, rather than the Panther rotating in your direction? Also, staying buttoned up while moving through questionable territory offers both better protection and better target selection (against armor).

[Fionn]

R-Man,

You are so totally wrong it isn't even funny .

Being buttoned means that your crews are FAR LESS LIKELY to spot enemy threats than if they were buttoned.

If you button your tanks all the time I'd willingly take 5 Sherman 76s up against 5 Panthers or Tigers of yours and I'd hand you your ass on a plate.

Buttoning your tanks is a seriously bad move. You won't spot targets, you'll ALWAYS get the second shot off.. All in all you are reducing your tank's ability to kill the enemy hugely.

[patboivin]

Does anybody know if tank commanders have modifiers like they used to have in ASL?

(9-1, 9-0, 8-1, etc.)

Thanks.

Someone mentioned the drivers, wasn't it possible sometimes for the DRIVER to stick his head out of the top front of the chassis sometimes? (not sure if it was possible for all AFVs).

[Jeff Heidman]

Of course the answer is, as always, "it depends".

If you are in target aquisition mode, you should defdintely be unbuttoned, 'cause you wont see much otherwise. Similarly, if you are in a tank duel, your best bet is to have the best vis possible.

Hopefully, if you are properly supported with infantry, they can screen you from getting poped by a fuast or seomthing.

There are many instances were you need to be buttoned however. If you are under artillery barrage, or if you are in a situation where visibility is not as important. I do not know if CM models it, but if you ever come under air attack, you dang well better batten down the hatches. A .50cal MG cannot do *too* much to your vehicle, but if you have a hatch open, your dead, and so is your crew.

The thing with being unbuttoned is that you are not just a little vulnerable, you are *extremely* vulnerable. It is trivial for anyone out there with a MG to gun you down, at least in the real world.

A tank without a TC is a mission kill.

Jeff Heidman

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Winning the battle is FAR more important than the lives of a few TCs.B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You will not win the battle if your TCs are getting popped. A tank with a dead TC is a dead tank for all intents and purposes.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest grunto]

the best thing i think is to button up after you have begun engaging the target. say you've reached the end of a turn and have already fired at least a shot at the target. giving the button-up command between turns isn't a bad idea since you already have a target. then when the target is destroyed you unbutton at the beginning of the next turn so you can move to your next firing point.

i would say button up if there's a ton of infantry able to bring fire on you... and move slowly in a support role. let the infantry lead... unbutton again after you've distanced yourself from the enemy infantry or it is destroyed.

when i do a line-charge with some tanks i often button to minimize crew casualties against the real threat of infantry small arms.

sometimes a hole is found and all of the tanks pour through unmolested. sometimes they run right into the thick of enemy infantry and pay the price. sometimes half of them get through and this may help win the battle but what a way to do it.

sometimes none of them get through. i think buttoned up may be justified in any case during tank rushes.

i will have to revisit my buttoned-up tactics after i get the release and install the 1.01 patch.

perhaps we're discussing unpatched versus patched cm here as well. i've read that the 1.01 patch reduces visibility even more for buttoned-up afvs.

i haven't played with the patch yet.

andy

[Fionn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You will not win the battle if your TCs are getting popped. A tank with a dead TC is a dead tank for all intents and purposes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A tank with a dead TC is only slightly worse off than a buttoned tank. Buttoning totally kills your spotting ability and is particularly lethal to Allied tanks.

In any case I don't lose all that many TCs and I think my success rate speaks for itself. I would LOVE to run into a gaggle of buttoned tanks. Time for a slaughter .

[PoisonKitchen]

I would have to agree with Fionn here. I always leave my tanks unbuttoned. The TC know when to get down and button up and they do it quickly if neccesary. I don't think I have even lost a single TC this way. The increase in visiibility more than makes up for the slight vunulerability. I have seen many instances where this extra visibilty has gotten me tank kills that I would have missed if I had been buttoned. Not to mention my tanks would have been destroyed if they had been buttoned.

Tank combat boils down to who gets the first shot most of the time. Especially at close range. I feel more confident that I will get that first shot if my tanks are unbuttoned.

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Scott

[This message has been edited by PoisonKitchen (edited 06-22-2000).]

[Dar]

The *only* time I leave my TCs buttoned up are when they're engaging infantry at close range (< 200m) and all AT threats have been dealt with (to the best of my knowledge!). Otherwise, I always want their eyes and ears open so they can pop anything threatening as soon as it shows its ugly head!

Dar

[MichaelU]

Would a tank commander unbutton once the lead started flying? Because being able to see is so important, I normally leave my tanks unbuttoned, and unbutton again during the orders phase if necessary. But surely a tank commander who has closed the hatches because of incoming fire isn't going to suddenly open again while his vehicle is still taking fire. Perhaps it should be a morale thing, like a TC not being able to unbutton if he is "pinned."

[Keith]

As someone already mentioned in this thread, I think the best strategy is to aquire targets unbuttoned. After you engage a hard target and the AP starts flying, button up. When the target is KO'd or out of sight, shift positions and unbutton while manuvering.

Also it is extremely easy for infantry to succesfully close assault buttoned tanks. I have done this several times in scenaros I have played using the 'sneak' command.

[GhostOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

A tank with a dead TC is a dead tank for all intents and purposes.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer the advantages of being unbuttoned and have found that one still has a pretty effective fighting vehicle even if the TC has been killed.....after the shock wears off, of course. I haven't lost too many TC's from being unbuttoned and definitely prefer the significantly enhanced target acquisition.

Ghost