Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Well, the more I play the more I dislike CMBB "sneak"... "Sneaking" should be "moving silently and out of sight as much as possible". Slower than "move", with somewhat less exposure, not very much tiring. Then we have "crawling" : moving prone, as fast as possible (but not much fast), minimizing exposure, tiring. By mixing both we in fact lose the "sneak" command, as CMBB sneak is slow, reduce exposure and is tiring ! And what else can we use ? "Move" isn't sneaky AND is not meant to be used close to fire, "Advance" is made for move under fire, not sneaky at all and tiring too... When my Schreck want to sneak 10m to ambush a tank, the new "sneak" is OK, but when I want to move a platoon 100m around an enemy position ? And I didn't mention the "autosneak=autoexhaustion" TacAI override... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: Well, the more I play the more I dislike CMBB "sneak"...Like Crawl in CMBO, there aren't a lot of occasions when it is really useful. "Sneaking" should be "moving silently and out of sight as much as possible". Slower than "move", with somewhat less exposure, not very much tiring.Maybe we need a new comand: Creep. When my Schreck want to sneak 10m to ambush a tank, the new "sneak" is OK, but when I want to move a platoon 100m around an enemy position ?Have you tried Move to Contact? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 13, 2002 Author Share Posted November 13, 2002 Michael, "Move to Contact" is maybe better than "move" for the cohesion if under fire, but the problem is that the move stops as soon as WE see the enemy, not the other way round ! Even coupled with a "dummy" cover arc I think movement stops... Have to test it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 A new feature in the 1.01 patch can solve your problem : a unit moving to contact with a cover arc will stop only if an ennemy appears in the arc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: ...but the problem is that the move stops as soon as WE see the enemy, not the other way round !And why is that a bad thing? I kinda want my men to stop before they get shot at. Also take note of Sigurd's comment immediately following your own. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 13, 2002 Author Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Sigurd: A new feature in the 1.01 patch can solve your problem : a unit moving to contact with a cover arc will stop only if an ennemy appears in the arcWell, yes, I'll do with that, but isn't this a more complicated and risky way of "sneaking" ? I mean, I can get plastered by enemies just outside my cover arc without returning fire nor moving back ! :eek: Why was the old "sneak" not kept, and "crawl" renamed in a misleading way ? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Sigurd: A new feature in the 1.01 patch can solve your problem : a unit moving to contact with a cover arc will stop only if an ennemy appears in the arcThat should be a VERY welcome fix and it should provide great flexibility for the player. If Move to Contact is like sneak (being that is it supposed to be "sort of" Stealthy) then the MTC with the Cover arc that prevents units from stopping if the contact is outside the cover arc "should" be the PERFECT solution. No :confused: ?? Looks like the patch is in the testing stage now as Rune seems to imply in the latest peng challenge thread . -tom w [ November 13, 2002, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigurd: A new feature in the 1.01 patch can solve your problem : a unit moving to contact with a cover arc will stop only if an ennemy appears in the arcWell, yes, I'll do with that, but isn't this a more complicated and risky way of "sneaking" ? I mean, I can get plastered by enemies just outside my cover arc without returning fire nor moving back ! :eek: Why was the old "sneak" not kept, and "crawl" renamed in a misleading way ? :confused: </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 MTC with a CA might do for a lot of situations, but the fact we have to do it seems a bit daft. Personally I would have liked the old 'Sneak' and 'Crawl' to have been supplemented by the the 'Move to Contact'. But I guess the number of different movement orders might start to look a bit daunting? While I'm typing, although not on-topic, one thing I wish I had was a "secondary" order I could give to my units to tell them what to do when they come under fire. eg. MTC across that open ground but go to ground with a 'Sneak' or 'Advance' to a pre-determined patch of cover (only allowing one movement leg for this bit) when you're shot at. The chance of the unit following the "secondary" order is further determined by their experience and current morale. No good for the current engine, but *fingers crossed*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 One thing to point out, 'Move' has changed since CMBO. I believe it is more stealthy and akin to sneak in CMBO then just a road march. Though, it doesn't have the stop while fired upon effect. This is just going on earlier posts from here, no first hand testing or anything... Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Move to contact plus covered arc - a micromanagers dream. Nolloff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Taking out the Crawl and Sneak commands was a bad mistake IMHO (<--- For my buddy, Emrys) From my limited playing time so far, it seems that although the "Move" command is more stealthy than the old one, it wasn't intended to replace the old "Sneak" command. So BTS, how are we supposed to flank the opposition now if our only movement order to do so is a "Sneak" order that puts us in a prone position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdSober Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 So BTS, how are we supposed to flank the opposition now if our only movement order to do so is a "Sneak" order that puts us in a prone position? I would have thought that plotting a "move" order whose route takes advantage of the natural cover and concealment of the terrain would cover that one, maybe using a short crawl/sneak command to break contact at the beginning of the movement phase (if the forces have already been spotted), and another one to approach the final position. I think CMBB puts much more emphasis on human responsibility for planning moves, rather than trusting the AI to keep your troops hidden. I'm constantly losing contact with the computer's forces when they go to ground; I don't see why it should be different for a human player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: ...but isn't this a more complicated and risky way of "sneaking" ? I mean, I can get plastered by enemies just outside my cover arc without returning fire nor moving back !Try giving them a CA of 180° and a radius of 200 meters. That ought to cover most dangers. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJim Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 I have to agree that it seems simplest to create a new (but already in CMBO) command that allows slower movement which is more attentive to dangers. I would hope the first CMBB patch would have the "Crawl" and "Sneak" commands, which would be a great augmentation to Move, Fast, Advance, & Assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 bumpity bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Doesn't the manual say that units using MTC will stop if they see an enemy unit or if they are receiving fire? Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedel Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Here is an evil idea from me for upcomming Versions of CM (i think it is to radical for a Patch). Seperate the Move Orders and the firing Rules... Have a Move Conmmand Scalable from crawl to run storm etc... fineHave a Move Conmmand Scalable from crawl to run storm etc... fine and have firing rules for units ala "Cover Arc Armour" or "hold Fire" or "Close Defense Fire only" or Simple Cover Arcs. Is a Cover Arc able to get past 180° ? if not such a thing would be.... I think you can imagine how i mean it...... BTS FIX IT OR DO SOMEFINK !!! At least meanwhile give us back the sneak and crawl command again....... Uedel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 14, 2002 Author Share Posted November 14, 2002 Thinking some more about it, I had the following ideas : "Move" orders should have 4 components : * Move speed : crawl-move-run * Stealth "on" or "off" : "on" will give more concealment at cost of less speed and some more fatigue * Combat awareness "on"/"off" : "off" will give better speed, less fatigue but unit will be more exposed and more easily disrupted/panicked * Response to enemy : none (don't react, continue move), stop & shoot (as long as threat is present), retreat/withdraw (find nearest cover with no LOS to sighted enemy, else go to ground ) With all these components everything should be possible ... Maybe it's a wee too much mocromanagement, so "combos" could be made instead (such as current "move to contact", "assault", ...). However currently some useful combos aren't possible, that's the issue ! (such as "move sneakily and withdraw from enemy" ... for a tank hunter/schreck team going into position ) Feedback ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 With the chance of following the specific 'order combination' dependent on experience and current fatigue level? Personally, me likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgars Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 From my observations in CMBB "Move" command has a tendency to be changed by TacAI to Run command when unit is fired upon. Very unwelcome thing, given the troops under Run order are now much more vulnerable. The thing Sigurd said about MTC with CA might be useful IF there is a possibility to give a group CA order. Otherwise there's a big waste of our precious time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 BTS FIX IT OR DO SOMEFINK !!! At least meanwhile give us back the sneak and crawl command again....... Uedel Yes ! Add me to the 'Sneak Restoration Campaign' agitators listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedel Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Fly Pusher you are added to the list. Please Transfer $ 5.547,23 membership fees for the next 100 Years of Goldmembership to my account at the First National Bank of Keymans Account 334556788556787884554345760989347897643245698437692835791540897 (hey no thats not my WinXP registration number the Win XP number is more then double the lenght ) For this u recieve a Gold shining Member card of "Give us back Sneak Command Club" a Dild* and a Autogram Card from Sigfried and Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 If it's affiliated with the "Actually I'd Rather Like Ambush Back As Well Club" then I'll join... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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