British Armor Questions

[Hiram Sedai]

1. How do you use the Archer??? What where they thinking?

2. Can the Cromwell VII be used against German Armor? Why is it so stinkin slow?

I'm going to be playing against a friend and I picked British this time. I need to have a basic idea how to use these things before we meet on the battlefield.

Any tips on how to use a Challenger?

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Guest grunto]

if i'm not mistaken the cromwell vii has a 95mm infantry support gun. the 'c' ammo on that is great against german tanks.

andy

[Chupacabra]

AFAIK, the Archer was a stopgap measure until the Firefly could be put into service. The British needed something that could punch through a Tiger sooner rather than later.

The Cromwell VII is slow, well, because it's British. Although British tank design was changing towards the end of the war, British tanks during the war generally fell into two categories: fast, lightly armed and armored Cruiser tanks, and slow, heavy Support tanks. The Cromwell VII is most definitely a Support tank. It's not designed as a tank killer qua tank killer, and if you try to use it as such, you'll probably be disappointed. As Grunto pointed out, it does have shaped charge shells, so in a pinch it'll serve, but it's (forgive the pun) hit or miss.

The Challenger was a decent tank. IIRC it's a Cromwell modified to take the 17-pounder gun. It's got decent mobility, decent armor, and the 17-pounder's a killer.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Hiram Sedai]

Thanks, Chuppie.

Question - with the Archer. Do I orient it away from the enemy to target or ambush?

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Popper]

Part of the reason for the slowness of British armor has to do with a fundamental difference in tactical philosophy. Military planners are usually guilty of believing that the next war will be fought like the last one. The Brits were no exception to this.

WW1 tanks were used mainly as infantry support (or "moving trenches"). The idea was that they would provide infantry protection from defensive machinegun fire and allow them to close with the enemy. To this end, they needed to have adequate armor, machineguns, anti-infantry artillery, and speed only enough to keep up with advancing infantry.

Ironically, the biggest proponent of massed armor in the prewar years was a Brit by the name of B.H. Liddell-Hart. His "expanding torrent" theory forms the basis for Heinz Guderian's "blitzkrieg" theories. Unfortunately for the Brits, prevailing military planners generally regarded him as a lone whacko in the woods.

[JoePrivate]

Actually it is the Churchill series of tanks which are slow, not the Cromwell tanks, which have a max speed of 40mph in the earlier models(both 75mm and 95mm). I like the British tanks for the most part, their ground pressure is on par with German armour, the 17pnder is an excellent AT weapon and the 95mm gun is excellent for infantry support. Survivability is problematic as sloped armour seemed to have escaped the British designers notice but that is common to the majority of Allied AFVs.

The Challenger is a good tank, able to take on Panthers and Tigers, though the high silhouette and weaker protection means you have to be more careful when engaging.

I have seen the Churchill(w/152mm front armour) shrug off Panther hits at greater than 500m. It's slow speed and weak gun(s) sort of limits that advantage however. Even when the 95mm gun has HC it isn't very effective in the AT role as the low velocity lowers the hit chance significantly.

I have never used the Archer and probably never will

For it's cost, the biggest secret in the British TO&E is the 6pnder AT gun. Regular AP can deal with PzIVs and Stugs and if armed with Tungsten it will make short work of Panthers and Tigers. Too bad there isn't any tank armed with it.

[Chupacabra]

RE the Archer -

Yep, shoot and scoot. Use it in ambush positions. Any other way and it's going to get wiped out before you can say blimey.

And yeah, it's got to be pointing backwards.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Hiram Sedai]

I set up a mini gunner range with British armor vs Panzerkampfwagons IVG and H.

The archers did pretty well. The Cromwell AVRE stumped me though. That is a huge gun and seemingly useless vs tanks. I might use it as arty though later on. The comet and challenger did okay. Interesting time without really moving stuff.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Chupacabra]

The AVRE wasn't meant to be used against tanks in any way. It was designed to quickly reduce enemy fortifications, and it does that quite well.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[British Tommy]

You got some excellent replies there!

I ran some tests on the archer and as some one quite rightly says, use them for ambushing the axis armour. DO NOT move them when in LOS of axis armour!! ( try it and see why! )

The challenger tank can take on Panthers and Tigers ( and even King Tigers! ) but again, take note of the excellent advice about it's armour ( not ' armor'...... this is a British tank after all! )

[Grobdeutschland]

I love the wasp flamethrower- a vet wasp can sweep in & burn the bad guys as they fight your INF...the wasp is the best kept british secret.

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"Far better it is

To dare mighty things...

Then to take rank with

Those poor, timid spirits

Who know neither

Victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt 1899

[Samhain]

Another neat but likely unrealistic tactic with flamethrower vehicles is to intentionally set woods or buildings on fire (use area target) to deny passage to the enemy and/or block LOS with the smoke.

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I rode a tank, held a general's rank

When the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank.

--Rolling Stones

[Guest Mikey D]

Think of the Archer as a gun emplacement on wheels, not like anything remotely involving a tank.

Actually the 'real' Archer was even worse than the game's vehicle and was universally despised by the end-user. To fire the gun the driver had to dismount from the vehicle (or the recoiling breech would bash out his brains) and stand around exposed waiting to be called back in to drive off! Yipes! To say that they saw little real combat would be an undersatement.

[OGSF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Samhain:

Another neat but likely unrealistic tactic with flamethrower vehicles is to intentionally set woods or buildings on fire (use area target) to deny passage to the enemy and/or block LOS with the smoke.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so unrealistic. Burning woods denies cover to infantry and forces them out into the open.

In 1944 the Allied push through Aachen was eventually halted (temporarily of course) by the German defenders deliberately setting buildings ablaze.

The challenge with using flame vehicles is their short range - easy meat for almost any AFV with anti-tank capability.

Brilliant tools on foggy nights though!

OberGruppenStompinFuhrer

[Samhain]

Thanks for the info: I imagined the basic idea had some foundation in fact, but didn't guess that flame vehicles were typically used to those ends (I imagine a Zippo would do the trick much easier )

They are certainly easy prey for AT assets, as you say, but when I use them in the way I suggested, it's early in the battle while defending, partcularly when there's lots of wooded terrain nearby. Then they'll often have time to drive around and selectively set things on fire before the enemy arrives or can get LOS.

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I rode a tank, held a general's rank

When the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank.

--Rolling Stones

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OGSF:

The challenge with using flame vehicles is their short range - easy meat for almost any AFV with anti-tank capability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am currently playing a battle where the attacker is losing his Wasps left right and centre without them affecting me very much because he is using them incorrectly. He does not mind, because he is stomping me and has about 2 dozen of them, but still.

The correct way to use Wasps is:

1. Find the enemy with your infantry.

2. Fix the enemy with your infantry, make sure there are no bad surprises (LATW) in the neighbourhood.

3. Suppress the enemy.

4. Now bring up the Wasp and start the BBQ. Since the enemy is suppressed, they will not be able to bring fire on the Wasp and it will escape unscathed. Since it is usually a one-hit by the Wasp target panicks deal, the fight is over by this stage.

5. Send in the infantry to collect the cowering survivors.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Grobdeutschland]

Thanks Germanboy, for saying what I said the long way. I sometimes assume people know the basics

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"Far better it is

To dare mighty things...

Then to take rank with

Those poor, timid spirits

Who know neither

Victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt 1899

[Hiram Sedai]

This is all well and good if and when you've eliminated all of the axis armor that is capable of destroying your wasp. My difficulty with the british armor is speed and suitability for certain tasks. The well armored tanks are so stinkin slow and there don't seem to be many choices for Tank Destroyers.

thoughts?

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Chupacabra]

Hiram -

The Firefly, the Challenger, the Achilles, and later on the Comet all have 17 pdr guns, which is capable of ruining a German tank's day very quickly. The Achilles is a dedicated tank destroyer, along the same lines as the Hellcat. But it's tough to go wrong with any of those. They'll all do just fine for Panzer whomping.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Hiram Sedai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Hiram -

The Firefly, the Challenger, the Achilles, and later on the Comet all have 17 pdr guns, which is capable of ruining a German tank's day very quickly. The Achilles is a dedicated tank destroyer, along the same lines as the Hellcat. But it's tough to go wrong with any of those. They'll all do just fine for Panzer whomping.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does the 17 PDR equal 76MM?

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

Does the 17 PDR equal 76MM?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes - the Comet though has a 77mm which is different but equally dangerous to the German heavies. I am currently playing a PBEM where my opponent is probably crying by now b/c I took out two of his HD cats (a Tiger I and a Panther) with my HD Firefly at 340m, not even using Tungsten.

You are right on the Wasp - don't use it when the tanks are still prowling. Or be very careful. You can also use it to bait the German player, because the Wasp is an easy kill for a tank, but very dangerous for his infantry. Just provide overwatch with a Firefly. When the ugly snout of a Tiger appears to take out the Wasp, whack it. Easier said then done, but still.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Grobdeutschland]

The 17pdr on the firefly is a better gun then the hellcat's 76mm.

Wasps are to be used as an added punch. I hold them towards the end of a battle when I know where the ATs are & deploy them (hopefully) away from danger.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grobdeutschland:

The 17pdr on the firefly is a better gun then the hellcat's 76mm. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

D'uh - GD is right, I meant in the game, the 17pdr is identified as a 76mm in the weapon stats of the Firefly and Challenger. It is a far better gun than the US 76mm. US tank gun design sucks when it comes to anti-tank performance. Still does, the M1A2 uses a German designed 120mm Rheinmetall gun, same as the Leopard II - notice how the Germans kept the cat names for tanks, we also had a Jaguar tank destroyer, we have a Marder (like a ferret) tracked APC, a Lynx (again) recon wheeled AFV, and a Wiesel (again a small ferret-like animal) airborne support tank that is in use by the US too, AFAIK.

[Hiram Sedai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

D'uh - GD is right, I meant in the game, the 17pdr is identified as a 76mm in the weapon stats of the Firefly and Challenger. It is a far better gun than the US 76mm. US tank gun design sucks when it comes to anti-tank performance. Still does, the M1A2 uses a German designed 120mm Rheinmetall gun, same as the Leopard II - notice how the Germans kept the cat names for tanks, we also had a Jaguar tank destroyer, we have a Marder (like a ferret) tracked APC, a Lynx (again) recon wheeled AFV, and a Wiesel (again a small ferret-like animal) airborne support tank that is in use by the US too, AFAIK.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I purchase armor, I've been looking at the gun size (no innuendo intended). It seems that 75MM and below does not seem to work well against German Armor. I had some mini Tank ranges set up and I learned about which tanks not to use. Anything below a Sherman 76 seems to be too inefectual.

As for British Armor, I am liking the Challenger. It killed a Hetzer for me last night.

My favorite German tank is the Lynx because of how fast it is and how well it covers infantry. Never heard of the jaguar though.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Marlow]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

a Wiesel (again a small ferret-like animal) airborne support tank that is in use by the US too, AFAIK.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have information on the U.S. airborne using this vehicle, I would be very interested. To the best of my recollection, the 82nd Airborne is still using the old M551.