Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Not only does this post represent some ideas for and about CMBB, but also serves as the triumphant return of everyones favorite messege board chef....(pauses for applause)..................30 minuits later..... The question i pose is simple, how will and what will the improvements be for damage modeling in CMBB be modeled? Let me say here that i have viewed the screen shots that included some nice pictures of a battle in progress. (*see the screen shot of the SU-85's driving thu snow with some large explosions in the background.*) I must admit i was impressed with the look of the vehicles. They looked much more authentic and actualy gave the look of a machine that had been used for longer then an hour. The skies looked beautiful, the trees were much improved, along with everything else visible in those screen shots. Everything looked great, and i was pleased to seem some added shrapnel and debris filling the air. Everything looked great in freeze frame stillness. Will everything look just as good moving around? I would be as impressed as i was happy if this were to be. I will list off some of what i think would be great additions in the upcoming sequel. 1.) Improved modeling of housing. For example, when a tiger turns it's turret towards a small house with cowering Soviet forces inside, will the shell penetration be modeled? It would be great if shells could knock down walls, shatter glass, collapse roofs ect.. This would also serve as a better way to judge when to withdraw from a building almost as instictive as it would be for the acutal squad itself. Not to mention it would harken back to the glory days of X-Com where everything was modeled and everything could be destroyed. This was usualy a good thing to avoid, but it added a whole new dimension to the game and it is close attnetion to detail like that wich seperate the many great games from the classics. (I consider CMBO a classic.) 2.) Heavy Machine gun crews with a will to live. I am aware this topic has been debated to death but i felt it had to be added. It's safe to say we've all stared in disbeleif or utter contempt as yet another well placed machine gun nest fell victim to bravado and selfless acts of multiple platoons "storming the gates" and shoving that MG-42 right up.....ok you get my point.-nuff said. 3.) Anti tank guns that do not have a p.a system to yell and taunt the opposing battle group giving away thier postion to the whole of the oppostion force after knocking out an AFV. Anti-tank gun ambushes were among the most deadly situations to tank crews from either side. Layers upon layers of men, mines and 76.2mm anti tank guns along with dug in tanks themselves were the stake in wich the axis implaled themselves upon during Operation Zitedelle. Speaking of tanks i'd like to add that the KV-2 was one of the most impotent AFV's of the war. Stop getting excited about them, but alas that is for another topic. 4.) Snipers. Marksmen are great, but why not add snipers? I'm not talking about fictional propaganda effectiveness like in that charming love story that was Enemy at the Gates, but combat trained and effective snipers is all. I beleive this would add a whole new element of danger to the reality of street fighting. This combined with improved machine gunners, would without a doubt make everyone think twice about blindly crossing a street. 5.) Cossaks. The germans did indeed let some of the Ukranians fight for them, and thank heavens not anywhere near the number who would have gladly volunteered. 6.) Civillians. Yes i said it....and i do not believe even the grogiest of the grogs has ever brought this up. Unfortunatly not all of the cities towns and landscapes were evacuated in time before a siege. I beleive civillains should be modeled. Before anyone thinks i'm sadistic or anything i must bring up that this has been modeled in pc games before. In fact, X-Com, and X-Com Apocolypse, both classic games, modeled civilians, and yes they were indeed very mortal. Civiilians had thier place in the game, you were supposed to protect them, you lost mission points if any died by your hands or by the aliens. IF you caught the mall on fire, (think ghostbusters) not only did you have to worry about your squads saftey, but also the civilians, they could catch on fire and perish quite easily. This in turn added realism, but not only that, added a whole new level of tactical combat to the game. 7.) Playing dead. The russians were so eronyius in their quest to kill nazis that if it meant there own end so be it. (some not all) Mabe having half squads lie down and play dead, only to pop up and shoot their enemy in the back later could be included? As a side note, if this would be incorperated into the game, the Axis would haveot have the option of shooting at "corpses". Again the tactical effect would be on ammunition and one extra thing for the opposing player to have to consider. 8.) Ammunition stockpiles. I think the defender, depending of course on the circumstances should have more ammunition then the attacker. (only under the right circumstances, i know this was not always the case.) This should not be modeled in a way where the squads simply have more ammo on them, but some buidling, bunkers ect. should have the ammo where squads can reload, and resupply themselves if not in the building where it is located themselves. These should include cases of grenades as well, that could be used liberly if need be, or serve as a bane if suddenly the case is ignited by one of the enemies many fragmentation devises. 9.) Vehicle damage. Put some holes in the tanks, some oil on the ground, some broken tracks and some dented turrets. Show us where the the shell hit, crumple some metal ect...i'm not talking anything extreme like turrets getting blown off or tank being tossed 20ft into the air like paper wieghts and landing on thier roofs, that is not within the game engine i understand, but some little added touches could add a great deal to the game. 10.) Do not get offended, CMBO is a classic and CMBB is going to be a great game regardless. I'm not meaning to sound like an arm chair programmer or developer, i understand how much work it is, and time is always fleeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 1) Cool, but probably won't get in. They said something like 95% of the coding is done. 2) I'm pretty sure they're changing this problem. I hope so, because I can't stand another one of those "Are CM machine guns under-modelled?" threads. 3) I hope so again. AT guns seem to easily spotted in CM. One tank and done pretty much. 4) Important enough a factor to include, IMO. I reading a book on the battle up to and in Stalingrad, and it said that in the weeks leading up to the actual city fighting the German officers were taking many casualities from Russian snipers. Makes several mentions of Lts. leading companies and the like. 5) It would be a nice extra 6) I don't see the point 7) How commonplace was this? Just extra baggage added to the game IMO. I don't think it would add too much. 8) Ammo & resupply is really outside of the scope of CM, which focuses on the actual battle. I thint it would be too tedious. 9) That would be very cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 One clarification - Muzzle Velocity modelled civilians - both pedestrians and motor vehicles. Some of the girls were cute, too. But then again, you could knock down a house with .50 cal in that one too. Edit - another clarification - doesn't HIDE mean the same thing as "play dead"? [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 You can rest your melon now. I have your answer. Yes #7 was indeed brought up several times before the release of the beta demo IIRC. Do a search!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: 7.) Playing dead. The russians were so eronyius in their quest to kill nazis that if it meant there own end so be it. (some not all) Mabe having half squads lie down and play dead, only to pop up and shoot their enemy in the back later could be included? As a side note, if this would be incorperated into the game, the Axis would haveot have the option of shooting at "corpses". Again the tactical effect would be on ammunition and one extra thing for the opposing player to have to consider. <hr></blockquote> Good lord Chief... Can we teach them to rollover and beg too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 22, 2002 Author Share Posted January 22, 2002 No, but mabe there could be a chnce for some game hunting to feed famished soldiers, i can see it now......a hungry smg squad open firing on some elk, wait mabe thats not such a good idea after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: No, but mabe there could be a chnce for some game hunting to feed famished soldiers, i can see it now......a hungry smg squad open firing on some elk, wait mabe thats not such a good idea after all. <hr></blockquote> Why not just equip all of the soldiers with Hampster jerky? It makes a great after-battle snack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Why not just equip all of the soldiers with Hampster jerky? It makes a great after-battle snack!<hr></blockquote> mmmmmmm jerrrrrrkyyyyyyy.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Another question somewhere linked to "Damage Control": Is it possible for dead soldiers to pile up in such a way that following (living) soldiers will have some protection against small calibre riflefire and even more important some concealment. I think the very common human wave assault of the russians often created huge piles of corpses which may have given some protection for following waves.... ? (Disgusting i know..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TSword: Is it possible for dead soldiers to pile up in such a way that following (living) soldiers will have some protection against small calibre riflefire and even more important some concealment. <hr></blockquote> LOL...that's a classic! "Hey comrade, mind I use your dead corpse for a bullet stopper? "But I'm not dead yet!" *BAM-BAM-BAM* "Oh yes you are..." Even though there were human wave attacks, they were not so massed together or in such a quantity to make mounds of corpses. The corpses would be spread out along the line of the attack and thus bodies would not be crumpled dead on top of each other. Although there were unsuccessful massed armor attacks that would provide enough cover and concealment against bullets from the husks. I dont think the CM engine can handle that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 TSword - CMBO & CMBB do not implement dynamic LOS, which means that non-terrain objects don't block LOS (with the exception of burning vehicles and their smoke plume). Vehicles and infantry (living or dead) don't block/affect the LOS. Therefore dead bodies won't serve as 'bullet stoppers'. Dynamic LOS isn't implemented because it is far too much of a drain on the CPU to mathematically track each object's effect on LOS for every other object. Such computations would make almost any engagement in CM un-runable on almost any CPU. Fixed objects are much more consistent and less math intensive in this regard. CMII (the engine rewrite) most likely will still not model dynamic LOS because of its massive effect on the minimum requirements to run it, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Why not just equip all of the soldiers with Hampster jerky? It makes a great after-battle snack!<hr></blockquote> The Hampstertruppen would not find that amusing... not at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipmonkey25 Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schrullenhaft: [QB]- Vehicles and infantry (living or dead) don't block/affect the LOS. QB]<hr></blockquote> I think dead vehicles DO block LOS, at least burning ones do. [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Shipmonkey25 ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 24, 2002 Author Share Posted January 24, 2002 I think dead vehicles burning or not should also block line of site. If some soldiers are hidden behind a knocked out tank in the street and it happens to not be on fire, why would the opposing forces suddenly be able to see thru a tank that is not made out of plexi-glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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