Arty Spotter In Command Bonuses

[Col Deadmarsh]

Does having an arty spotter in command of a HQ with Combat bonuses make for a tighter barrage or one with more losses by the enemy?

Or does the combat bonus not effect arty strikes?

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

I always thought the combat bonus (lightning bolt) helped with a tighter, more accurate barrage - but i'll freely admit that i haven't run any proper tests to support my claim.

I'm also fairly certain that the command bonus (star) contributes to a faster FFE.

Perhaps this is just wishful thinking because I always make sure to have my spotters within C&C of some type of HQ.

I'm sure the guys with test results will be along shortly.

[86smopuim]

"Does having an arty spotter in command of a HQ with Combat bonuses make for a tighter barrage or one with more losses by the enemy?"

No, not for off board artillery.

If an arty spotter is NOT in C&C, the time to

target is very adversly affected. A 2 min target

time will most the time start after 4 minutes.

For on board, indirect fire, the units will hitter tighter and faster, which will make more casutlies.

[Col Deadmarsh]

86, I'll assume you're right about the combat bonus unless someone else wants to come on here and prove you wrong (Where are the testers?)

I'm not so sure about the time to fire though. Can anyone confirm this?

[Tero]

In my experience having an FO in CC does usually make for longer delays, not shorter ones as the commanding units experience levels are imposed on the FO. And the delays imposed by the built in communications net complicated by being in CC. This is why I usually try to keep them out of CC.

If you get a green FO in CC with a veteran/crack/elite command unit with loads of bonuses there might be some benefits. But since in most scenarios the experience levels are reversed (green infantry command unit vs experienced FO) and in QB's you do not get that kind of combo unless you play unlimited force selection having the FO's in CC is not worth it IMO. On-board mortars are a different matter alltogether. But then the main benefit you get is spotting for the mortars which remain in an out of LOS location, not the command bonuses as such.

[86smopuim]

"In my experience having an FO in CC does usually make for longer delays, not shorter ones as the commanding units experience levels are imposed on the FO."

I am unsure if this is true.

However a crack FO, NOT in c & c, fires faster than a regular FO in c&c 2 stars commander.

A regular FO is greatly helped by having stars.

Buying elite, crack, or even veteran arty is a serious gamble unlikely to pay off.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Does having an arty spotter in command of a HQ with Combat bonuses make for a tighter barrage or one with more losses by the enemy?

Or does the combat bonus not effect arty strikes?

No. Combat and Command bonus of HQs have no influence on firing time or accuracy.

Spotter LOS and experience level are the decisive factors.

However, Morale and Stealth bonus DO have influence and make the spotter more difficult to be detected, and less susceptible to suppression by enemy fire (imagine your Vet spotter with 100 rounds 155 mm running away panicked.... :mad: ).

[wbs]

My impression is that ALL of the command bonuses apply for both on-board AND off-board artillery.

I personally believe that those who say that there is no effect are incorrect, but neither side of the issue has posted an authoritative answer. I think that we would need one of the game designers to weigh in with an answer. Anyone from Big Time Software care to comment?

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by wbs:

My impression is that ALL of the command bonuses apply for both on-board AND off-board artillery.

It is very hard to work out the effect of the HQ bonuses precisely. But I have previously done some tests on this subject for my own interest, and i have the following opinions:

Stealth makes hiding units and sneaking units harder to spot, and makes ambushing units less likely to fire early (the first two would effect spotters). Once a spotter is firing (kneeling, not hiding) the stealth bonus doesn't apply. Stealth does not help firing, running, or moving units. It may help crawling, taking cover and pinned units. The effect of the stealth bonus is greater in heavy cover and at night. It is unnoticable in open terrain in the day.

The combat bonus applies to FP. It increases the FP of any infantry or MG. It does not help guns hit armour, or bazookas/piats/shrecks hit armour. I have not idea whether it helps guns targeting infantry, but I doubt it. Redwolf claims it helps onboard mortars hit open-top vehicles. Even if this is so, I am sure it would not effect off-board arty. It may help fausts, I don't know.

The moral bonus applies to everything in the HQs command, including guns and infantry AT. It is my favourite bonus.

The command bonus increases HQ-effect range and reaction times of infantry and MGs. It does not make the the units more experienced (ie. Regular infantry does not become veteran under +1 command). IMHO it does not effect spotters in any way.

A veteran or crack HQ does not make the units under it (eg regular spotter) veteran or crack.

HQs of higher experience seem to give you more bonuses. The experience of the HQ does not effect quality of the bonuses though. ie. A +2 combat bonus is the same whether the HQ is crack or green.

The time taken to call in an arty strike depend on the spotter's experience, LOS, TRPs, and whether the spotter is moving or kneeling. (and nationality - thanks pak40)

I have done tests to support all this, but because of all the variables in CM and the time it takes to do a test comprehensively, I can say my confidence in all of the above is about 25%

[ July 09, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[tecumseh]

Oh yeah, another thing.

Combat bonus does not increase the ROF of guns. It's quite simple to test, and I can find no effect on ROF - either area fire or against armour. However the TH FAQs claim this is so. :confused:

My feeling is that the combat bonus effects nothing but firepower values.

[ July 09, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[PiggDogg]

Tecumseh,

Thanks for your time in having performed your tests. My observations confirm your conclusions.

Me thinks that you might be more than 25% sure of your results.

Cheers, Richard

[Pak40]

Originally posted by wbs:

My impression is that ALL of the command bonuses apply for both on-board AND off-board artillery.

I personally believe that those who say that there is no effect are incorrect, but neither side of the issue has posted an authoritative answer. I think that we would need one of the game designers to weigh in with an answer. Anyone from Big Time Software care to comment?

Well, since I have thoroughly tested this over a year ago, I can say that a Command unit has absolutely no influence on the time it takes for the rounds to come in OR how tight the rounds fall.

Being in LOS effects how tight the rounds fall and how fast the rounds come in. A FO in LOS of the target spot will have his time tick off in a normal rate, i.e. 1 timer second = 1 real second. A FO out of LOS will have his time tick off twice a slow, i.e. 1 timer second = 2 real seconds.

The qualilty of the FO and the nationality will also dictate the amount of time the rounds take to come in although there is still some randomness.

Finally, and my most important point: The vast majority of FOs(if not all) are officers themselves. Therefore, FOs in CM are, in a way, command units themselves although they dont actually command any other units. CM does not model having officers in C&C by other officers. What's the point in having a lt. command another lt. or captain?

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Pak40:

The vast majority of FOs(if not all) are officers themselves. Therefore, FOs in CM are, in a way, command units themselves although they dont actually command any other units

But there is still a line extending from an HQ unit to a nearby spotter, which kind of implies that something is gained (as opposed to two HQ units, where there is no line). This is why I think the moral and stealth bonuses apply to spotters.

[tecumseh]

scumsucking double post

[ July 09, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Col Deadmarsh]

The moral bonus applies to everything in the HQs command, including guns and infantry AT. It is my favourite bonus.

It's my favorite bonus too as I've noticed some of my soldiers who are out of command and don't recieve the moral bonus suddenly become conscientious objectors.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pak40:

The vast majority of FOs(if not all) are officers themselves. Therefore, FOs in CM are, in a way, command units themselves although they dont actually command any other units

But there is still a line extending from an HQ unit to a nearby spotter, which kind of implies that something is gained (as opposed to two HQ units, where there is no line). This is why I think the moral and stealth bonuses apply to spotters.</font>

[Holien]

Well that is a revealation on the combat bonus. I will stop placing my decent HQ's next to guns.

I had assumed a greater hit chance but if that is not the case you only need a HQ with Stealth and Moral near a Gun and even then Stealth is useless after the thing is spotted. Which is darn quick when firing.

This will affect the way I play and give me a stronger edge in the future, as the use of HQ's can be essential.

Thanks for that info.

H

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Holien:

I had assumed a greater hit chance but if that is not the case you only need a HQ with Stealth and Moral near a Gun and even then Stealth is useless after the thing is spotted.

I used to put my best stealth and combat HQs next to guns as well, to the point where inf platoons were forced to hide in parts of the map I didn't need them, just so their HQ could be near a gun.

My feeling now is that even the moral bonus is better spent elsewhere (once the arty starts falling, your gun is in big trouble anyway) - preferably with attacking infantry. That's were it can make a big impact.

I have had infantry running over open ground without a moral bonus turn back because they were fired on by a flak CREW! (not a "crew?") Like, 3 pistols. <sigh>

[Holien]

This sort of information rerally helps game play and perhaps should be in the manual.

All of this sort of stuff is discovered by reading these threads and if you are new to the game playing an old hand you are up against it.

H

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

Heh heh, that brings back a good memory. Soddball was rushing a Faust-toting squad (that was not in C-and-C) towards the flank of my buttoned & shocked Sherman. I couldn't have the Sherman target it, since I had to target the Panzer IV dead ahead that I had just exposed by destroying the building it was hiding behind w/ the Sherman.

So I had a bailed-out halftrack crew fire its two pistols at 150m+, and that squad turned right around and headed home after the first shot! Gotta love those pissed-off crews and their long-range marksmanship!

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Holien:

This sort of information rerally helps game play

Didn't stop you beating me in 5 turns, Holien!

Admittedly I only had one tank