Juardis Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 In CMBO you could spring ambushes by giving the hide order and your guys would unhide automatically once the enemy got close enough AND your hiding unit spotted them. The ambush command by itself did not do as good a job as just plain old hide IMO. Using ambush + hide was even worse than using either command by itself. So now I read the following about cover arcs Hiding units assigned cover arcs will immediately stop hiding when they notice an enemy unit enter the covered arc.But it is also known that if your guys are hiding, then they cannot spot as well, thus I emphasize the word notice in the quote. So are we back to the situation we were in with CMBO where cover arc + hiding is worse than either one by itself? Presumably, if you're assigned a cover arc, you'll be looking specifically in that arc for the enemy so you're more likely to spot them, even if you're hiding. Just wondering how this works in the game. Yes, I know, I can test this myself, but I'm pretty sure that someone has already done so and if they could be so kind, it would save me some time. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 I have a simaler concern. So far it seems that troops staying still are not as easy to spot as in CMBO. But, I've just started one game against a human and have been too lazy to do any testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 The other day someone from BFC said that in CMBB it is not necessary to hide troops that are in decent concealment like woods. They will spot better when not hiding and should not be spotted by the enemy unless they move or fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Ok ran a little test... One squad with an unmodified HQ, Regular troops both sides, 1) In scattered trees, both moving towards each other with "MTC" orders and they detect each other very nearly at the same time at 50 meters and open fire, again at almost the exact time. Ran this 3 times, no change. 2) Again in scattered trees, Russians moving and Germans stationary, germans detect russians at about 50m and get in a quick volley first, then the russians detect the germans and a firefight ensues. 3) Again in scattered trees, germans are not moving, just sitting there, and given a covered arc to the rear. Russians aproach and are deteced again at 50m, but the russians continue to 15m before detecting the germans, and open fire. 4) Again in scattered trees, this time the germans are now hiding, and given a covered arc to the rear. The Russians aproach and are again detected at 50m, and again continue to 15m before detecting the germans, and open fire. 5) Again in scattered trees, the germans are again hiding, and given a covered arc, but this time towards the front. The Russians aproach and are again detected at 50m, and again continue to about 15m where they are shot at before detecting the germans. After the first volley the Russians detect the germans and open fire. So, this very unscientific study leads me to believe that the "HIDE" command has very little effect in scattered trees. The units generally stay undiscoverd if moving to about 50m, and if stationary about 15m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 very interesting weasle, thanks. So covered arcs by itself will result in immediate fire once triggered, but hiding allows the enemy to close before opening fire, regardless of where the cover arc is placed. At least that appears true in scattered trees. It also appears that whether they are hiding or not does not diminish when they first spot the russians, so that's good to know too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liebchen Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Weasle, I may have missed it, but it sounds as if you didn't try this scenario: Germans stationary, cover arc to the front, and <u>not</u> hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 I like the new system. I will hide my troops and give a covered arc command, and I have had no problems with them firing once someone came into the covered arc. Much better than CMBO's ambush command. Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by Liebchen: Weasle, I may have missed it, but it sounds as if you didn't try this scenario: Germans stationary, cover arc to the front, and <u>not</u> hiding.Sounds like I may have missed that combo. I may try some more test like this for other comninations. Will let you know if I get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by Liebchen: Weasle, I may have missed it, but it sounds as if you didn't try this scenario: Germans stationary, cover arc to the front, and <u>not</u> hiding.Well, the way I see it, it would be similar to case number 2. In all cases the moving russians were spotted by 50m, so putting a covered arc there would not increase the range at which they were spotted. Scenario 2 the stationary germans opened fire when the russians were spotted. You would expect the same thing to happen if there was a covered arc there, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liebchen Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 I was just coming to that conclusion on my own. What is troubling is how the hiding Germans didn't fire until 15 meters, even though they had detected the enemy at 50 meters and had a covered arc order. I do not understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameroon Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by Liebchen: I was just coming to that conclusion on my own. What is troubling is how the hiding Germans didn't fire until 15 meters, even though they had detected the enemy at 50 meters and had a covered arc order. I do not understand this.I think one of us mis-read. I'm pretty sure he's saying he put the cover arc for the Germans _behind_ the Germans (much like putting an ambush marker in CMBO behind the unit to keep it hiding). And then, when the Soviets finally got within 15m they spotted the non-moving Germans and opened fire. So the German troops were maintaining their fire discipline as they were supposed to. Of course, there are also the times when your unit does not maintain its fire discipline. I had a QB last night where my Vet T-34 had an armor cover arc and decided to open up on some infantry (hundreds of meters away). To add to it, the infantry was outside the cover arc. There was a severe reprimand waiting for that TC. [ October 02, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Cameroon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liebchen Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by Dirtweasle: 2) Again in scattered trees, Russians moving and Germans stationary, germans detect russians at about 50m and get in a quick volley first, then the russians detect the germans and a firefight ensues. ... 5) Again in scattered trees, the germans are again hiding, and given a covered arc, but this time towards the front. The Russians aproach and are again detected at 50m, and again continue to about 15m where they are shot at before detecting the germans. After the first volley the Russians detect the germans and open fire.This is what I referred to. It seems that the Germans opened fire at 50m when given no particular orders, but when told to hide -- but to cover an arc -- they held fire until 15m. Of course, I do not know the extent of the covered arc... I assume that it was for 50m or more, right Dirtweasle? I may do my own tests tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by Cameroon: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liebchen: I was just coming to that conclusion on my own. What is troubling is how the hiding Germans didn't fire until 15 meters, even though they had detected the enemy at 50 meters and had a covered arc order. I do not understand this.I think one of us mis-read. I'm pretty sure he's saying he put the cover arc for the Germans _behind_ the Germans (much like putting an ambush marker in CMBO behind the unit to keep it hiding). And then, when the Soviets finally got within 15m they spotted the non-moving Germans and opened fire. So the German troops were maintaining their fire discipline as they were supposed to. Of course, there are also the times when your unit does not maintain its fire discipline. I had a QB last night where my Vet T-34 had an armor cover arc and decided to open up on some infantry (hundreds of meters away). To add to it, the infantry was outside the cover arc. There was a severe reprimand waiting for that TC.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by Liebchen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dirtweasle: 2) Again in scattered trees, Russians moving and Germans stationary, germans detect russians at about 50m and get in a quick volley first, then the russians detect the germans and a firefight ensues. ... 5) Again in scattered trees, the germans are again hiding, and given a covered arc, but this time towards the front. The Russians aproach and are again detected at 50m, and again continue to about 15m where they are shot at before detecting the germans. After the first volley the Russians detect the germans and open fire.This is what I referred to. It seems that the Germans opened fire at 50m when given no particular orders, but when told to hide -- but to cover an arc -- they held fire until 15m. Of course, I do not know the extent of the covered arc... I assume that it was for 50m or more, right Dirtweasle? I may do my own tests tonight...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liebchen Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by Dirtweasle: The size of the covered arc in all examples where I used it was the smallest possible, 15 meters.This explains a lot. I will try it tonight, myself, just out of continuing curiosity... [ October 02, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Liebchen ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 i'm playing a scenario. i have russians hiding with covered arcs. i notice some of them will unhide even though they have no targets and do not fire. they will do this every turn even though i keep rehiding them. is this a bug or is something happening i'm just not seeing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 What is your troops' experience level? If they are of low experience (and remember, in the early war even regulars and veterans count as low) that might explain their poor discipline. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by Michael emrys: What is your troops' experience level? If they are of low experience (and remember, in the early war even regulars and veterans count as low) that might explain their poor discipline. Michaelthey're regular in the 1st half of 43. it must be the fact they have a 180 degree arc. i'll try setting them to a narrower arc and see if that keeps them hidden... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameroon Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by zukkov: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys: What is your troops' experience level? If they are of low experience (and remember, in the early war even regulars and veterans count as low) that might explain their poor discipline. Michaelthey're regular in the 1st half of 43. it must be the fact they have a 180 degree arc. i'll try setting them to a narrower arc and see if that keeps them hidden...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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