JaegerMeister Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Right here goes, i feel a fool for having to ask this as i count myself pretty competent in tactical and strategic planning and i also have services experience..but, i'm having a real job trying to identify/flush out enemy positions, troops etc in nearly all circumstances. I know all about the Russians famous ability of camouflage, but i believe this was used more by snipers or for a certain tactical situation, ie not the norm by your average Popov infantryman, especially during the Barbarossa 41 advances. I am finding no matter what i try, i constantly get 'ambushed' by red infantry, MG's and AT guns. No matter what i try, whether it be cautiously using armoured cars for recon, split squads etc...they just get wiped out without ever really reporting enemy dispositions. I use good cover, i leave units watching, listening and waiting, hoping they will spot something...nope. I am finding it really frustrating to have enemy units seemingly 'pop-up' all over the place right in front of my eyes, once i commit any of my forces in terrain i thought i had already kept a keen eye on or had troops over-watching. Surely, you are not expected to get your forces to hose-down every single clump of trees, every building, every marsh, just in case a russian is in it. You simply dont have the time or ammo to do so. I keep racking my mind over this, wondering what i'm doing wrong, but it seems to me, the enemy are just too invisible. Positions should become revealed the longer you have forces nearby, over-watching, especially within 200m, terrain permitting, even if they are just identified as '?' with a nationality symbol. Is this a fault with the EFOW mode?, are others suffering the same?, has anyone come up with an effective routine to get over this? And guys, trust me, i am trying every cautious, exploratory means to locate these positions, not just blundering in. Interested to hear your thoughts/tactics. Also, as i've seen mentioned elsewhere, why do the majority of my men/afvs on overwatch not open fire on targets that do appear, even when i have cover-arcs set etc, when i check them in the movie and their ammo, they often never fire a shot even with clear LOS....great support, not. Should i not have cover-arcs set when on the offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smolensk Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 JaegerMeister, I have been experiencing the very same problem. It seems that most often the only way to flush out the enemy is to lose a few good men. I also am using the EFOW mode. Smolensk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenaelin Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 This is problem I found out too, if you got one or two enemy squad ahead with or without foxhole, your entire platoon is suddenly panicking and pinned, it seems that they always manage to succesfull ambush your troops. Where is that sneak command in this game where you could ambush enemy foxhole positions? Is this anyway possible in this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I do now have regularly a HQ-Unit (Platoon or company HQ) in the Lead or first line, because they are very good at spotting and identifying targets. When moving into absolutely unknown land, i use a half squad at a time while the rest of the platoon is ready to give cover fire so they are always within 50-100 m (depending on terrain) -> with 2 Halfsquads one can advance in bounds. It is important that the cover element does not move. Also important is to have some pause before advancing, so the resting(covering) troops have time to scan the terrain. Keep your HMGs, LMGs and mortars close to give heavy support fire if necessary. To assault a position the enemy MUST be supressed or the attacker won't make it (one single squad may stall a platoon easily). In general one needs 2/3 to suppress and 1/3 to assault or to safely assault a platoon pos you need roughly 2 platoon equivalents of suppressing fire and atleast 1 platoon to assault. Best for suppression are mortars and HMGs or big volumes of rifle fire. I've never encountered the engagment problem you're pointing out my units always engaged the identified enemy so far... Greets Daniel [ November 20, 2002, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: TSword ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screeny Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 heya, I haven't encountered this problem in a moderate or more tree scenario's most of the time once they (Russians) see me, this leading squad get waisted but at least I have a good idea on their positions because most of the time the open area's to be crossed are relative small. saw the covering force is nver really far a way. Since I playing the Boltong rules campaign I'm battling on the open steps of South Russia. And I mean OPEN no cover expect for a single scattered tree here and a ditch over there. Axis on the attack and the rusky on the other side. No matter how caution I am no way I managed to get any forces beyond 200 mtrs from my set up zone without being ellimnated. The covering forces don't see any thing as well while 100 mtrs in front of them teh recon unit is getting chopped up. Only a star in the distance notig: "sound contact" wwhich disappears the next round. Moving any kind of armour is is as deadly as well. Boem boem. killed by AT guns...but this nowhere to be seen by nobody. Only strategy to get my forces from the setup zone into favorable positions up front is to use all my precious arty for smoke screening. I tried that before and laid smoke on one side but then the forces were shot from the not-screened side. So next tactic I'll try is to lay a "path of smoke' through which my forces will advance. Will take quite some arty rounds and lot of co-ordination becausing crossing the area will take 2 to 3 minutes and all this time the screen must be there. How I will engage the guns and AT guns with out any arty once I'm ib new up front postions I still don't know....... If any one has some NEW idea's on open steppe tatctics.... gr Screeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 So far, I haven't seen the problem that people are reporting of their overwatch units not firing, so I can't address it. But as for plain-jane Soviet infantry being good at camo, yes it's true, from all that I have read on the subject so far. So that part is realistic. At least after they reveal their postions, even if they subsequently go back into hiding, you can manually assign them as area targets. As for hosing every scrap of cover, no I agree that is not practical either, but you should by now be able to make a shrewd guess about some of the likely places where the enemy is most likely to set up good ambush positions and give them some attention. The MGs on tanks and HTs are best for this as they are usually carrying gobs of ammo and won't run out too quickly. A nice, sharp prep barrage by the artillery will also cover a multi-tile area and give any lurking infantry or guns something to think about. If you can time it to end just before your troops get there, it will keep the enemy's heads down long enough for your own troops to return effective fire. It also messes with the enemy's morale, which is always a good thing. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegerMeister Posted November 20, 2002 Author Share Posted November 20, 2002 Screeny...seems your suffering the same as i. I'm also now playing the Billtong rules battles..that open ground is a bitch!..even with smoke, those green boys are going nowhere. TSword...HQs as recon? not recommended, but on the other hand, if its the only chance i've got of revealing anyone, then maybe worth the odd risk?..i didn't know they had improved spotting abilities. Micheal,the problem is, they aren't revealed...i get 'whack' AC knocked out, no revelations or my half squad gets hit/wiped out, again, maybe i'm lucky if just one squad is identified even with my whole platoon watching the ground for the last two turns...the battle is a constant 'ambush' scenario - i dont believe thats historically correct, common practise was to creep an AC up for a look-see or send a scout or two up to reccon the enemy mg nests, positions etc. Like i said, i often have upto a platoon hiding in cover with LOS waiting to spot some enemy, before i make any creep forwards. And as for the over-watch not giving cover-fire..i had this happen just last night. An AC had crept forward into cover but got immoblised by a mortar round, but it sat there while the red infantry in LOS continued to shoot at it, without returning fire (no crew casualties)...and i had a whole platoon of infantry also with LOS who sat there 75m away, some with cover arcs set, some not, who refused to fire off any suppressive rounds to help out their buddies trapped in the AC under fire! [ November 20, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: JaegerMeister ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by JaegerMeister: Like i said, i often have upto a platoon hiding in cover..."Hiding"??? Do you mean that literally? Like, with a Hide order? If so, then it comes as no surprise that they aren't spotting anything. Hiding dramatically curtails a unit's ability to spot. An AC had crept forward into cover but got immoblised by a mortar round, but it sat there...Was it shocked? That might explain its unresponsiveness. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 My suggestions wera vs. AI of course. The picture is completely different when playing vs. human. There the Player can easily avoid that most of his units are spotted. In case of steppe as soon the enemy unit goes prone it becomes a "star". In open terrain infantry is only of very limited use, here tanks reign the field clearly, especially vs. human player. Vs. a human player Artillery becomes very important and firing really heavy suppressive fire when assaulting a position. Flanks must be secured or suppressed or screened by smoke. A lot of smoke in general becomes important to restrict fields of fire to own benefit. Playing vs. AI is like training whereas vs. human the real thing. Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Jaegermeister, 1. HQ unit as spotter: Of course i have a halfsquad in the Lead, but a HQ-unit or more in the very first line. They have better spotting and identification capablities and they are usually quite immune vs. enemy fire. I don't know wether your post is about playing vs. AI or human player. Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegerMeister Posted November 20, 2002 Author Share Posted November 20, 2002 Micheal...no they were not 'hiding' as in CMBB terms, i meant deployed under cover in trees etc but with clear LOS. No the AC was only shocked on turn it took mortar damage, but next 5 turns i had to manually tell it to fire on threats, otherwise it just sat there ignoring them!..and why didn't the nearby platoon open up? TSword...yeah this is in AI battles, i'm referring to, but i have noticed the same complete lack of spotting any human positions too (of course he could have used 'hide' for them), when my forces are watching/waiting. And trust me, i'm very experienced/adept at playing human opponents too. ps these are 1941 battles i'm talking here, predominantly regular with some green & vet troops thrown in, not sure whether thats relevant, maybe spotting improves in later years troops/afvs? [ November 20, 2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: JaegerMeister ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by JaegerMeister: Micheal...no they were not 'hiding' as in CMBB terms, i meant deployed under cover in trees etc but with clear LOS. No the AC was only shocked on turn it took mortar damage, but next 5 turns i had to manually tell it to fire on threats, otherwise it just sat there ignoring them!..and why didn't the nearby platoon open up?Thanks for the clarification, JM. Frankly, I am at a loss to explain without knowing more. Did you save the turn in question? If so, and you send it to me (my address is in my profile) and if anything comes to mind I'll pass it on. ps these are 1941 battles i'm talking here, predominantly regular with some green & vet troops thrown in, not sure whether thats relevant...?Yes, in fact that was going to be my next question. Hmm. Might try with predominantly veteran troops and see if that makes any difference. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegerMeister Posted November 20, 2002 Author Share Posted November 20, 2002 Sorry Micheal, no i didn't save the turn, but thanks for your time in answering anyway. Maybe next occurrence i get, i will email you with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 JaegerMeister, When I play the attacker (play Soviet, too) I take it for granted that there are enemy AT assets out there, usually deep on the enemy side. Hence, most of my early moves are by infantry, using short 25m advances (runs/human assaults if the unit hasn't the capability). These advances are over whatever covering terrain I have that is along my sector of advance, but if there is only open, then they do it over open. At 25m jaunts the infantry will rarely tire (even in open snow), since this will give them enough time to rest during a turn. They move for only a short time, making enemy target acquisition more difficult. Finally, they move continually (meaning each turn), making artillery barrages less of a concern (still a big concern, but less so to some variable degree). As soon as I can get my infantry within a reasonable distance to the enemy MLR (meaning, I can view most of their area of disposition), I place them in any covering terrain. Then, I move my vehicles, and usually very quickly to points of cover that protect from most obvious directions. They move quick to spoil any AT fire upon them. Should my vehicles draw fire, I'm banking on my infantry spotting them. If there is some terrain in my rear that offers good fields of fire to the enemy depths, then I may try and pop a tank hulldown there, and see what happens, but only after my infantry are in place forward. Basically, I want as many eyes as forward as possible when any of my tanks or vehicles come under fire, so that I can isolate and eliminate these AT points quickly. Once it appears that these AT threats are eliminated, then I reverse my methods, focusing my attention on the movement of infantry with AFVs supporting. You must understand that nothing ever works like clockwork, but that's my usual SOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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