Hakko Ichiu Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 I have found sharpshooters to be extremely survivable and very stealthy. As such, they make excellent scouts: move or sneak them forward, then hide them. You get a reasonable view of the battlefield for a very low point risk -- 22 points IIRC, but I'm out of the country and bereft of CM at the mo'. I'm pretty sure this runs contra to tactical doctrine, so is it gamey. BTW, I have only done this against the AI. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Hmmm... I have only taken a "Sharpshooter" once so far and he seemed to be spotted VERY quickly. I had him in a building on the second floor. I was a little upset he was spotted so easily. I will with-hold grumbling on this 'issue' until I can get a little more playing time with this unit. BUT I do have to gripe about the low (IMO) ammo load of a sharpshooter. In the quick battle I did he got only TEN shots! What is this? Hell, even if this represents two shots each (which I doubt for a Elite sharpshooter) that is only 20 rounds of ammo?!? I think the 'default ammo load' should be bumped up for sharpshooters. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted June 27, 2000 Author Share Posted June 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: Hmmm... BUT I do have to gripe about the low (IMO) ammo load of a sharpshooter. In the quick battle I did he got only TEN shots! What is this? Hell, even if this represents two shots each (which I doubt for a Elite sharpshooter) that is only 20 rounds of ammo?!? I think the 'default ammo load' should be bumped up for sharpshooters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree it's low, but it's mighty effective. In a quick battle, I snuck a veteran sharpshooter up a wooded rise to get LOS on the German flank. He spots a platoon of dug-in infantry, and proceeds to suppress the outermost squad for 5 turns or so, thereby making my advance significantly easier. And he never took return fire. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 This is a perfectly legitimate and realistic tactic. The Germans typically deployed snipers in the "no-mans land" for that express purpose. In fact, I have read that during the Cobra operation, after the American troops withdrew for the air bombardment, German snipers immediately occupied the vacated space and laid hasty mines. These actions in addition to the short bombings played havoc with the Americans initial assualt for operation Cobra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Hakko, actually i think what you're doing is highly realistic. as a matter of fact i'll bet that scouting with a sharpshooter is more realistic than scouting with a half-squad, at least in the case of americans. i'm basing this on an account from the american rifleman where one guy spent the war leading his company as a scout using a tracer-firing m1903 bolt-action rifle. a guy carrying a bolt-action (at least in the american army) would by definition be classified as 'sharpshooter,' no? andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degrees of Frost Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Didn't you Americans call them snipers too ? I find it odd that German sharpshooters are only issued with 20 rounds. Do they carry a semi-auto whatever it is or a scoped mauser ? Don't have the game but have found the money to pay for it now - the money order is leaving to cross the Pacific today - so I will only have to wait 4+ weeks for the game to arrive ! Hooray ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Well the unit has 20 "ammo units". If this is equal to 20, 30 or 50 actual rounds of ammo I don't know. Keep in mind that units NEVER run out of small arms ammo. They will go to "LOW" and then fire only when they have to. But it just seemed to little ammo when I had my man go to "LOW" in under ten minutes of action... ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonicc Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Don't forget that the sharpshooter won't always shoot. they look for an opportunity to fire without being shot at. That 10 ammo could last awhile in a target rich enviroment. ------------------ Teutonicc The MEMBER Formerly Known as Teutonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 I'm playing a PBEM scenario that will go unnamed, but it has a "crack" German sharpshooter. He sits up on the second floor and picks his own targets. He has killed some (based on a reduction in the number of men seen in the unit) and suppressed others. They can be very effective for the cost. And the scenario had two of them placed well forward of the MLR, so it seems perfectly reasonable to use them as scouts. ------------------ "Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Buckeye: Next time check the 'kills' section of the info page for the sniper unit. I was amazed to see how many kills a well-placed sniper could get! It's much easier than counting the number of advancing infantry that 'go missing'. Snipers can reduce the effectiveness of armor also...dead commanders can't command as well as live ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 I personally feel the sniper ammo load out is WAY to low - he could carry ten times that and stil not rattle ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Yeah it seems that the number of ammo units is too small. But, if a Sharpshooter's ammo level goes to "LOW" will he still take a good % to hit shot at a tank commader 150yards away? Or will he just save his ammo for self defence? ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Hey Shooter. I do check the info page, but that only shows definite kills. At long range, at least in my experience, the snipers are often picking off the enemy but not necessarily getting credit for definite kills. I check both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Degrees of Frost: I find it odd that German sharpshooters are only issued with 20 rounds. Do they carry a semi-auto whatever it is or a scoped mauser ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Some Germans did in fact use scoped GEW43 semi-autos. I remember reading somewhere that many snipers preferred them over the bolt-action Mausers. I, for one, agree with the low ammo loadout. Adding more rounds would probably unbalance play since they're so deadly and cheap. (see also the "puppchen" thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 IntelWeenie: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I, for one, agree with the low ammo loadout. Adding more rounds would probably unbalance Play since they're so deadly and cheap. (see also the "puppchen" thread...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am ADAMANTLY against this reasoning for EVERYTHING in the game (including the sharpshooter and the puppchen). If a unit is too powerful (i.e. more effective than it was historically) then alter the unit so that it is more realistic. If the unit is realistically powerful, but too cheap then raise its costs to accurately reflect its worth in CM. This is the entire purpose of a point system, after all. BUT, do not alter the ammo load (or any other aspect) of the unit in an attempt to 'balance' the unit in an artificial way. I sincerely hope that that BTS is NOT using a low ammo load to 'balance' snipers. I bet it is something simpler that this. Perhaps something like "X" number of rounds of ammo (in reality) equals "Y" number of ammo units in CM. This works okay for squads and 'normal' troopers. But for single man units composed of men trained to kill with each and every shot this calculation could be a little off. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that the low ammo was for balance puposes. I think that it's a result of the ammo calculations maybe not working exacty at the one-man level. Actually, it may be a little high considering most squads (8-12 men) have about 30 or so shots. I agree that point values are a much better way of "balancing" things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Whew, we agree on this then. A lot of people don't agree with this and have no problem altering unit stats to make them 'balanced', even in a historical game. But I don't think Steve and Charles think that way. If it is something as simple as the ammo calculation then I am sure BTS will fix it as soon as they have a chance to get around to it. I am also sure they are swamped right now. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Sharpshooters were often used to screen the edges of an advance. They're cheap and effective and great at stealthy movement. I don't think what you did is in the least bit gamey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Yeah, and they're not bad at killing AT gunners either, eh Fionn? ------------------ "Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Yeah . My sniper unit in our PBEM shows up as having destroyed an AT gun . Take that you US 57mm AT . Seriously though, taking out high-priority crew-served weapons was one thing sharpshooters were created to do. It's nice to see it working so well in the game. PS. Did you spot the sharpshooter yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 Spot him? Hell, most of my men (the few that are left) are cowering in fear from your damn tanks! My city has fallen victim to the SS scorched earth doctrine! ------------------ "Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 FWIW, in the US Marines, the "sharpshooters" are officially called Scout Snipers. They are intended not only to pop people but also find and report things. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 >>Hey Shooter. I do check the info page, but that only shows definite kills. At long range, at least in my experience, the snipers are often picking off the enemy but not necessarily getting credit for definite kills. I check both ways.<< Buckeye, Have you noticed that the kill rating seems to be more accurate when the overall quality of your forces is higher? I noticed this and am not 100% sure it's true yet but it sure seems to be working out that way in the games I've played so far. The kill counts when I play the SS are usually on the mark when I check out the map at the end of the game. Gonna try a hotseat game against myself (my, that sounds pathetic)to see if this holds true. I'm sure the fog of war setting also affects things. At best, during the game, it's just a rough estimate. Thanks for starting this topic, it brings up a lot of interesting possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 Shooter, You're right. Better troops make a better estimate of the amount of damage they do to the enemy. Snipers are well worth their weight in gold when attacking . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 They're also handy on the defense. Get good LOS, and leave them to pick their own targets. They'll often pay you back with the SEAL mantra: One shot, one kill. ------------------ "Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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