Question about finnish "Home Guard"

[Guest Mike]

I just erad an account of a Russian soldier who fought in the Winter War, and he mentioned that they captured a man and a woman who fired at them from a farmhouse.

He wrote that he woman was found to be part of "the Lotta organisation", and was later executed for that.

I've traced Lotta to the Finnish nation-wide voluntary defence auxiliary organisation "Lotta-Svärd", but I was curious why the woman would be executed for being aprt of this??

Was it seen as a guerilla organisation, so it's members weer liable to being executed for fighting in civilian clothes as "Francs tiraeurs" (sp??)?

[Prinz Eugen]

Well, the Lotta-Svärd organization wasn't a military one, in that sense that they'd carry weapons and such. They assisted the armed forces by taking care of the wounded, air-sentry duties, etc etc. That sort of thing. It was by no means a guerrilla organization ( we're talking about women here ! ), and the fact that she fired at some stranger approaching her house is by no means something to wonder at. It was known that the Soviets use desants behind the lines, so every stranger was possibly an enemy. As it later turned out.

As you may know, the Soviets didn't need much of a reason to execute someone...

[BaD JoKe]

Prinz Eugen know his ****

Russian partisans often invaded deep behind the front, into the populated village areas. There are several records where ENTIRE villages were burned and ALL populace executed. Women and the old men, even small children... There were also other things done witch I will not post here...

When the wartime archives about partisan actions opened in russia (this happened just recently), they were studied by finnish historians and civilians who lost their familymembers in these partisan raids. They found out that most of these unarmed civilian villages that were burned and "cleaned" were marked into the partisan AARs as "garrisons".

It is true that sometimes, where possible, finns left 2 or 3 armed soldiers, possibly ones recovering from wounds etc. to stay behind in villages but there were no way that one would consider them as garrisons.

They were just acts of simple brutality ment to break the morale of civilian populace and the partisan commander would get more decorations for marking every building burned and every civilian slaughtered as a "garrison" or "soldier".

There are many books about the partisan actions published here in Finland, but I doubt that there are any translated into english or other lanquages.

[Juha Ahoniemi]

About the partisans: There was a document shown in Finnish TV a while ago, and they interviewed old russian man who had destroyed a "garrison" and killed all enemy "soldiers" and had received a ton of medals for that (he had his uniform on, and his chest was literally FULL of medals). He didn't show any kind of regret, he actually was proud what he had done. It really pissed me off. I hope (although I am an atheist) that there will some day be somekind of tribunal that rewards his actions for what they were. Pure monstrosities.

-Juha

[Kuma of Finland]

Lotta Svärd was voluntary organisation for women who wanted to help their country in war efforts. They wore an uniform but had no weapons (except for the natural ones )

They were assigned to many duties including treating wounded, serving food, observe airplanes etc but they didn't participate any fighting.

Suojeluskunta was voluntary organisation for men who wanted to do the same. They were armed, but if I've understood correctly it was jointed to Finnish Army just before WWII. Please correct me with this one! Suojeluskunta didn't participate any fights but most (all?) of the members were called to the army.

As stated previously many Russians treated these organisation members as illegal militia. They also treated the civilians the same way...

After WWII both of these organizations became illegal as Soviet Union demanded it in peace treaty.

In CMBB you wouldn't see these groups in any actual fights. If civilians and refugees were modelled in CMBB battles then you would see them also.

Although I wouldn't complain if I saw some really serious BUMP mapping in CMBB LOL

/kuma

[Sergei]

In Winter War there weren't partisans. It would be good to know if this soldier was in front or behind the lines - was he a normal combat soldier or a reconnaissance parachutist.

I assume he was a normal soldier from that the woman was executed. If it was a desant and was fired at, he'd probably have run away instead of fighting back. Also, if he was a lone spy behind the Finnish lines and had killed two Finns, he'd been caught and executed - so you wouldn't have read his account.

It probably isn't clear whether the woman was shooting or not, I presume not because Lotta's didn't carry guns nor were they trained to do so.

Maybe the Soviets didn't notice that, and considering that Lotta uniform was similar to the army uniforms, there is a risk of misunderstanding. It is also possible that she was executed as a punishment, if they knew that Lotta's were volunteers (so she was, presumably, a non-socialist). But then again, they might have shot her just for the heck of it.

[Guest Mike]

Thanks for the info.

The account is from a regular Russian officer of a recce platoon - skiers.

It's on the "Russian Battlefield" site - the URL of which I don't recall just now - but he's the guy who fought in the Winter War so you can read it there.

[Incognito]

Originally posted by BaD JoKe:

It is true that sometimes, where possible, finns left 2 or 3 armed soldiers, possibly ones recovering from wounds etc. to stay behind in villages but there were no way that one would consider them as garrisons.

Trust me, thats more than enought for 20 or 30 russian partisans.

[BaD JoKe]

In the Russian side, none of the several recorded and confirmed attacks against civilian targets have not been confirmed. In their opinion, they have allways attacked legimate, military targets.

What the outstanding FACT reveiled from the records is, that the dates of the attacks match on both sides. The information and names gained in on-site interrogations match. Russian partisans or desants, what ever, often interrogated their captives on-site, executed them and delivered the information to their side of the front.

I doubt that You will find any good, reliable russian information about the matter. They have completely denied that these things ever happened

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Mike:

The account is from a regular Russian officer of a recce platoon - skiers.

It's on the "Russian Battlefield" site

Oh yes, found it! Very interesting to read, there aren't that many Soviet accounts about the Winter War.

This is the thing:

- A. D. How often did you on reconnaissance missions?

We went every night. The objective number one was to capture "a tongue." The thing was that the Finns removed all civilians from the battle zone. During the whole time, we met resistance only at one of the hamlets where a man and a young woman opened rifle fire. We surrounded the house and, via an interpreter, offered to surrender, otherwise, we said the house would be burned down. They did surrender. We brought them back. I was later told that the girl turned out to be a member of the Lotta organization and was executed.

I find it amusing that they first surrounded the house and then offered themselves to surrender! I guess it took some time for Soviets to learn how to employ maneuver tactics...

Anyway, it seems like she was shot simply because of being a lotta. No reference is made to what happened to the man, but that's just what he was "later told".

Sad. My grandmother was a lotta, and she lived quite near to the border as well. Could have happened to her, if Group Talvela had failed...

We got hold of a Suomi when we took Khiliki 3rd. But we had a very strict order - not to take anything off the dead. Everything had to be turned in! However, when we took defense, then we used them. I fired a Suomi myself. It's a good gun but very heavy. It hangs on your neck like a log. Anyway, the submachine gun's strength is in its impact on the enemy's morale.

So, do we get to have Russians armed with captured Suomi SMG's?

[Tero]

Originally posted by Mike:

I've traced Lotta to the Finnish nation-wide voluntary defence auxiliary organisation "Lotta-Svärd", but I was curious why the woman would be executed for being aprt of this??

Some of the political aspects of the Fenno-Soviet brawl had its roots in the Finnish war of independence in 1918.

The Soviets used propaganda strongly related to events then because the leader of the intended puppet government (O.W. Kuusinen) had not kept up with current events in Finland after 1918. Hence the Home Guard along with Lotta Svärd organizations were labeled as the tools of tyranny which the white government of Finland was excersising over the working class of Finland.

Was it seen as a guerilla organisation, so it's members weer liable to being executed for fighting in civilian clothes as "Francs tiraeurs" (sp??)?

As indicated they wore a uniform recogniced by the Finnish government.

In fact most of the Finnish troops apart from the Home Guard fought in their civvies with nothing but a cocard and a leather belt issued by the army as garmenst to indicate as legitimate members of the Finnish military during Winter War. Thanks to the pre war shoe string budget.

[ August 25, 2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by SpaceHamster:

Trust me, thats more than enought for 20 or 30 russian partisans.

That brings up a little would-be problem in CMBB: the partisan formations the Finnish forces went up against were very well organized, crafty and the members were generally tough hombres and senoritas. They came across the front line (since there was no indiginous partisan movement in the Finnish sector), at least once at (IIRC, I'll have to check that) brigade strength and while they were being purusued they would kill their wounded and exhausted and even resort to cannibalism to keep alive. They carried with them even a press so as to be able to carry on the party preaching while on the march.

In pitched combat they were really tough and willing to sustain huge casualties without breaking just so the main body could slip away from a trap. The brigade mentioned above lost ~80% of its strenght during its failed mission (while inflicting only ~40 Finnish KIA). And still not once were they cornered so that the entire force could be engaged and destroyed at once.

[86smopuim]

desant? Whats that mean?

russian partisans? That implies indiginous troops

Why would their be russian partisans in finland?

[Frunze]

Let me second those questions. I think a lot of this is difficult for non-Finns to follow. Desant in some contexts would mean tank-rider, but that doesn't seem to be what people mean here. Another word for partisan?

What would be the distinction between Russian partisans and regular Russian soldiers? Were some of the partisans Karelians or exiled Finnish Communists?

Some of the details mentioned are making me wonder if there was an aspect of civil war as well as Finnish vs. Russian war here, or during the Continuation War, certainly that seems to have been a hope of the Kremlin going by the printing presses Tero mentioned, etc.

Obviously the Kremlin didn't succeed in getting the Finnish working class to rise up en masse to welcome the Red Army, or anything close to that, but did they have some limited degree of success?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

desant? Whats that mean?

Finnish term "desantti" comes from the Latin equivalent of "descender" - it meant Soviet spys and saboteurs who were dropped from airplanes into Finland. During the wars 1939-1944, over 700 Soviet desants were captured.

russian partisans? That implies indiginous troops

Why would their be russian partisans in finland?

They were part of the partisan organizational structure and therefore called as partisans by Soviets, even though usually partisans are understood as guerillas defending their homes against the occupier.

In Finland there's still debate over whether they should be called something else than partisans, because "partisan is too glorious a term for murderers" and because they made attacks across the border.

[Tero]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

desant? Whats that mean?

In Finnish military parlance a desant means (usually) a single Soviet person (often impersonating as a member of the Finnish military) airdropped behind Finnish lines to gather data, blow up bridges and other installations etc.

The term "foot desant" refers to larger bodies of men (ie regular troops and formations) who broke through the Finnish defences during the summer of 1944 fighting North of lake Ladoga and were tasked with taking hold of bridges or other choke points to prevent the Finnish troops from pulling back. They were an integral part of the Red Army battle plan. And they failed mainly because they broke through in a place and in a manner which made them succeptible to observation and pursuit right from the start. Had they gone around the Finnish defences in a more inconspicious manner they might have succeeded.

russian partisans? That implies indiginous troops

Why would their be russian partisans in finland?

That is what they called themselves. There was not even an indiginous partisan movement among the Soviet inhabitants in the part of Soviet Karelia the Finns occupied so they had to create and operate one from across the front line.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Frunze:

What would be the distinction between Russian partisans and regular Russian soldiers? Were some of the partisans Karelians or exiled Finnish Communists?

From what I have read, they were mainly or solely Russians. Stalin saw Soviet Finns more as a threat than anything, subject to nationalist agitation from Finland. During Winter War 1939-40, when Kremlin formed the puppet government in Terijoki, there was a little parade force consisting of Soviet Finns, Karelians and Russians, called as the Finnish People's Army or something. I haven't heard of them seeing action. In the Continuation War 1941-44 Soviet Finns & Karelians were apt to desert, so they might not have been trusted enough to go wandering too far by themselves.

Some of the details mentioned are making me wonder if there was an aspect of civil war as well as Finnish vs. Russian war here, or during the Continuation War, certainly that seems to have been a hope of the Kremlin going by the printing presses Tero mentioned, etc.

Finnish government didn't take any chances with known communists - they were put behind bars until 1944 and some were shot. In Finland the Communist Party was illegal until then. The party was principly a tool for USSR, as it was founded in Moscow in 1918. It had to remain underground, and Social Democrats (who the communists hated, of course) were too popular in order to the FCP network to be any use in agitating the working class to join the revolution etc.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Frunze:

Another word for partisan?

More like undercover operative. They spoke Finnish but usually their Finnish was so bad that was their undoing.

What would be the distinction between Russian partisans and regular Russian soldiers? Were some of the partisans Karelians or exiled Finnish Communists?

They were members of the Communist party. And more often than not extremely fanatical in their zeal. Some of them may have been Karelians and at least in once instance one member of a partisan troop which commited attrocities was later recogniced as having been a local who was known to have gone across the border in the 20/30's.

Some of the details mentioned are making me wonder if there was an aspect of civil war as well as Finnish vs. Russian war here, or during the Continuation War, certainly that seems to have been a hope of the Kremlin going by the printing presses Tero mentioned, etc.

Actually that "press" was a copying machine to be precise, sorry about the grandiose name I used before.

The operation was fought in the Pieningän salo (Pieninkä wilderness) area between July 15th and August 18th 1942. The brigade was the 1st Partisanbrigade which departed Sekeke June 29th 1942. Its task was to penetrate the area to Porajärvi, free POW's in camps near there, destroy a depot at Suojärvi and after that split up and wreak havoc and incite revolt in the Karelian villages. It had some 740 members (700 men, 40 women) and it suffered 90% casualties.

Obviously the Kremlin didn't succeed in getting the Finnish working class to rise up en masse to welcome the Red Army, or anything close to that, but did they have some limited degree of success?

What they did was provide entertainment for the Finnish front line troops. The propaganda was so based on so old data it did not help the Red Army cause too much.

[ August 26, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Sergei]

Hah Tero, I beat ya!

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Hah Tero, I beat ya!

Oh, man !!!!

Well, off to work then. Keep up the good work.

[Frunze]

Thanks for answering my questions, folks. I have to be a little sceptical about the idea that the Finnish Communists were totally without support during the war, though. After all, when they were legalized the war, in 1945 they elected 51 members to the Finnish Parliament, more than any other single party. Even if a number of coincidental and temporary factors are involved in that showing, a party doesn't suddenly go from nothing to, what, about a quarter of the voters? I'm not sure what the total size of the parliament was.

[ August 27, 2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Frunze ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Frunze:

I have to be a little sceptical about the idea that the Finnish Communists were totally without support during the war, though. After all, when they were legalized the war, in 1945 they elected 51 members to the Finnish Parliament, more than any other single party. Even if a number of coincidental and temporary factors are involved in that showing, a party doesn't suddenly go from nothing to, what, about a quarter of the voters?

They were not totally without support. But the thing is the Finnish Communist party was founded in Moscow. They did try to invoke approx. 1 million new voters into the number of voters. Most of them were non-Finnish speakers and were a part of an arranged tour around the country.

If you take a look at the number of Finns who becake POW (a decent ball park figure can be found in When Titans Clashed for example) you will find that the number is extraordinarily low.

The number of men who deserted to the enemy side is negligible.

After the war O.W. Kuusinen (now buried in the Kremlin wall) did not return from exile in Moscow to rule the newly reinstated party. All the rulers were "new". But still on a string. We call the years immediately after the was as "years of danger". When the Communists lost the majority in the 1948 election IIRC things started to take a turn for the normal.

[Sergei]

Frunze, where did you get your figures from? As far as my records go, the post-war elections went for major parties like this (total seats 200):

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> SDP SKDL Kok. Ml Rkp Kans.p.

1945 50 49 28 49 14 9

1948 54 38 33 56 14 5

1951 53 43 28 51 15 10

1954 54 43 24 53 13 13</pre>