Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 OK we know about the 88, but what else is in the arsenal?. I read about the 3.7 pak having hollow charge ammo, was it available?, or will we be knocking on the door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 I don't much about the details, but certain German AT guns and their equivalents mounted on tanks, etc., had Tungsten ammo as I recall. Which ones and how readily available this ammo was together with how effective it was I do not know. Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Stukas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Satchel charges and balls of steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 As far as my reading up on this goes is that tungsten ammo was made available after the first encounters with these beasts and that the stukas were busy reducing the Russian fleet at Krondstadt, satchel charges + balls of steel sounds good though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 I heard that the Germans resorted to 105mm field guns, 105 howitzers and even larger calibers as available. BTW a recent thread asked what was the earliest day that the Germans ran into the T-34. Glantz in "When Titans Clashed" says that the first contact took place on 6/23/1941, on the second day of the invasion. What a shock that must have been to some poor landser... :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by gunnergoz: I heard that the Germans resorted to 105mm field guns, 105 howitzers and even larger calibers as available. BTW a recent thread asked what was the earliest day that the Germans ran into the T-34. Glantz in "When Titans Clashed" says that the first contact took place on 6/23/1941, on the second day of the invasion. What a shock that must have been to some poor landser... :eek: The first Landser to see one wouldn't have known enough to be scared; they didn't know they existed, or how tough they were. I think it would have been more shocking once word spread across the front: "Kamerad, I tell you, those verdammt T-34s are unstoppable...." Sort of like Tiger-itis as suffered by Allied troops later in the war... But you know, German troops didn't lose their nerve that easily in the face of armour. Look at the number of Char B1 bis knocked out in France; it was a behemoth too. I wonder, come to think of it, if the Germans drew any lessons from the fighting in France on how to tackle "unstoppable" tanks, such as the Matilida or B1 Bis were in their day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Sure, that an 88 can smoke anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Just a couople days ago I read a section of the book "Panzer Aces" in which a Panzer Commander named Bix on at least two occaisions (!) had to disable a KV-1 with his PzIII by firing *AT* the gun tube of the enemy. There is even a photo in this book showing Bix standing before the KV and the barrel clearly shows three penetrations!! Quite amazing, he had some gunner! I believe that from the flanks even the KV-1s were penetrable, especially by getting a weak spot, so I would surmise it was the tactics of the Germans, combined with the lack of training and communication of the Soviets, that allowed these beasts to be broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 After the fall of France, there was priority for production of improved ammo (tungsten?) and the 5.0 cm pak, so the Wehrmacht did react to their experience. But were they actually ready?, after all the KV1 was a complete surprise to them as was the T34 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Also, Bix comments that in the field, tank gunners would try to targe the turret ring of the KVs and T-34s as this spot was weak enough to cause penetration. ANother thing I noticed, and I don't know if it was true in general, or perhaps just these skilled tankers, or just bravado, but they were ALWAYS blasting turrets completely off the enemy tanks. These battles are described in detail, and I swear, at least half of the tank-kills include flying turrets! And the ones that don't get blown off, then "every hatch is blown open as gouts of flame spew ten meters into the air." Is this accurate or poetic licence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer Leader: Also, Bix comments that in the field, tank gunners would try to targe the turret ring of the KVs and T-34s as this spot was weak enough to cause penetration. ANother thing I noticed, and I don't know if it was true in general, or perhaps just these skilled tankers, or just bravado, but they were ALWAYS blasting turrets completely off the enemy tanks. These battles are described in detail, and I swear, at least half of the tank-kills include flying turrets! And the ones that don't get blown off, then "every hatch is blown open as gouts of flame spew ten meters into the air." Is this accurate or poetic licence?Probably poetic license...Like those old Conan dime novels, in which Conan always killed at least one foe by "Cleaving his head from scalp to jaw" in every battle. But in reality blown turrets were not that unusual. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer Leader: Also, Bix comments that in the field, tank gunners would try to targe the turret ring of the KVs and T-34s as this spot was weak enough to cause penetration. ANother thing I noticed, and I don't know if it was true in general, or perhaps just these skilled tankers, or just bravado, but they were ALWAYS blasting turrets completely off the enemy tanks. These battles are described in detail, and I swear, at least half of the tank-kills include flying turrets! And the ones that don't get blown off, then "every hatch is blown open as gouts of flame spew ten meters into the air." Is this accurate or poetic licence?100+ gallons of fuel and 80 ammo rounds tends to make a pretty nice *whoosh*. Shells that penetrate usually ricochet around the crew compartment hitting and breaking lots of things, including fuel tanks and ammo. There's a video around the net of the famous scene in Cologne where a Pershing whacks a Panther in front of the Cathedral. It took 2 rounds right in the side that almost certainly got the fuel tanks. The turret crew obviously died in the tank as the flame that explodes out of the turret hatches is at least 20 feet high. You can see the radio op and driver bail in time though. The turret stayed on the vehicle in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 I sure that you would need to to be at close range to aim at the turret ring or gun barrel, brave!! or what!!. The continually exploding turrets remind me of those Sven Hassel books I read years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Yes, but this book WASN'T fiction is the thing. It documents accurately the six (arguably) most famous German tankers of WW2. The thing is, beside the extensive direct quotes, it is a narrative by the author, and I am wondering about the accuracy of his battle descriptions. The battles themselves seem to be very accurate and tru to history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Panzer Leader can you send me the details of the book, it sounds like somthing I should be reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 OK, did some research, and it turns out that "Panzer Aces" by Franz Kurowski, David Johnston (Translator) was originally published by J.J. Fedorowicz -- who in my opinion is the best small-press publisher of military books around, sort of the BTS of WW2 books. Anyway, they published the original, and Ballantine books picked it up and is selling a mass-market paperback at your local Barnes & Noble for $7. Pick it up! I have gotten some GREAT info on small unit armour tactics by reading this. Amazing book, and I am much relieved by the upstnding quality of its original publisher. I can't wait to get to the section on Wittman! (Edited to correct spelling of Wittman) [ February 28, 2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Thanks Panzer Leader, there isn't a Barnes and Noble in England, however in London there is a little, high quality military bookshop I will be going to tommorrow so I will order it from them. For everyone the shop is Ian Allen 45/46 Lower Marsh London SE1 7RG. Tel 0202379840 Fax 0202379921 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by Simon Elwen: Thanks Panzer Leader, there isn't a Barnes and Noble in England, however in London there is a little, high quality military bookshop I will be going to tommorrow so I will order it from them. For everyone the shop is Ian Allen 45/46 Lower Marsh London SE1 7RG. Tel 0202379840 Fax 0202379921Simon, I am desperately looking for copies of both volumes of LTC John Angolia's UNIFORMS AND TRADITIONS OF THE GERMAN ARMY 1933-1945. Any chance you could take a look for me...(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Michael I will put it on the shopping list and email you tommorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Simon the book I am referring to is a mass-market paperback. You might be able to find a high-quality hardback by the original publisher (Fedorowicz) but for only a few pounds (or is it Euro-dollars?) you can get this paperback. Its ISBN number is: 0-345-44884-7 Good luck! You won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Panzer Leader isn't Fedorowicz a Canadian publishing house? anyhow I'm sure I pick it up here, yes we still use pounds £, however the euro will come in for sure, its just about political will and electorial timing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Yes, Fedorowicz is Canadian, and they are great! Here's a link: Fedorowicz I've been trying to get Dorosh to get me some discount books from there for a long time (him being Canadian too, it shouldn't be that hard, aye?) but so far no luck! There selection is AMAZING, but so far the only thing I've bought is the Spaeter History of GD. I am saving up for Tigers in Combat and Panzertaktik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Won't be long I'm just going to their site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 The Germans need: 8 mins worth of smoke (pref. 81mm) 1 Kompany Pz-III to make fake attack opposite direction from.... 2 88s setting up to the rear of the T-34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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