Cowardly Soviet tanks

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Warmaker:

Hey, if you want to slug it out frontally and at extended ranges, my veteran and elite Tiger/Panther crews will be more than happy to oblige.

Don't expect green crews to fight like experienced veterans and be as brave. And what the hell are you doing trying to get into shooting matches with Tigers while using T-34/76's? Ranged duels WERE the Big Cat's game.

As far as IS-2s are concerned, I can still kill with a fair chance an IS-2 with the long 75s found on AFVs such as the Panther and Panzer IV/70. IS-2s are powerful but are definitely not invincible frontally.

Come on guys, change tactics. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you for some reason got into a fight with a guy 2-3 times your size, are you going to stand there toe to toe punching each other in the face? No!

So why is a bad tactics to move an ISU-122 into a hulldown position against a single Mk IV?

I don't know who brought up the obviously stupid example of a T-34 against big cats but in any case it has nothing to do with this discussion which is about equal tanks with equal kill chance behaving differently.

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Are you crazy or just too lazy to read?

Not as lazy as you obviously, since I at least read your post and it seems you didn't!

Thanks for the info - none of which was in your original post, which you would have known if you'd bothered to read what you wrote!

Given the circumstances you outlined I confess to having no idea why your ISU-122 backed off.

But it isn't isolated behaviour, not is it combined to Russians or even CMBB - I've seen Shermans refuse to take side shots vs P-4's identified as Tigers in CMBO.

Human psychology is a very complicated topic, and no computer model you can fit into a wargame in 2002 is going to do a perfect job reproducing its effects.

I guess you encountered an extreme, and as long as it's the only case you've found that bad you can (and I will) write it off as the far end of the bell curve.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

But it isn't isolated behaviour, not is it combined to Russians or even CMBB - I've seen Shermans refuse to take side shots vs P-4's identified as Tigers in CMBO.

The Mk IVs have never been identified as anything else in the game in question.

Human psychology is a very complicated topic, and no computer model you can fit into a wargame in 2002 is going to do a perfect job reproducing its effects.

Of course, which is why BFC always refused to consider adding nationality-specific behaviour or nationality-specific "emotions".

So that opens the question why several people in this hread report that Soviet tanks flee in situatins where German tanks don't.

I will produce savegames over the weekend.

[Triumvir]

I dunno, I haven't seen this behaviour before.

When playing the [CENSORED] operation, on the third battle, my company of T-34s was advancing across the open ground towards a hill behind the second town. To my horror, I saw 2 KTs and 2 Panthers crest the hill 600m away with all my tanks at least 200m from cover. So I charged my T-34s and T-60s forward en masse, with my IS-2s behind trying to plink the Panthers at least at long range. If it worked at Prokhorovka, then it might work here, I reasoned.

Out of 17 charging tanks, 5 made it to the base of the hill, and 1 lone, brave T-60 got close enough to ping a 45mm round off the side of a KT before it died.

None of them stopped to throw smoke and all of them were charging along like good New Soviet Men. I don't think that the AI's behaviour is necessarily always detrimental to Soviets.

[Silvio Manuel]

You lost 12 of 17 tanks in one charge, and this is not "detrimental to the Soviets?"

[Bruno Weiss]

redwolf wrote:

So that opens the question why several people in this hread report that Soviet tanks flee in situatins where German tanks don't.

IMO, it must be looked at on a case by case basis taking into account what factors existed for each. I.e., what were the LOS factors to the enemy target from the retreating tanks and from the target bact to the retreating tanks. (If the retreating tanks had a suck LOS, and the target had a great LOS in return, then a reduced LOS with a lower probility of a kill would indicate that the retreating crew took the entirely logical and realistic action. Particularly against a target of strength. Were the retreating tanks buttoned or unbuttoned, what about the target? Was the enemy target drawing a bead on the retreating tank, or was it preoccupied with something? Was the retreating tank completely in the open or was it partially hidden, and again what about the target? What was the quality and fitness factor of the retreating tank and target tank, and so on. There are many variables that might factor into a given situation.

Since I have seen German tanks react in the same manner I would say it is dependent upon all these factors and not a generalized reaction by Soviet tanks. I have also seen other types of units react in a similar fashion. Armored cars, light tanks, assult guns, as well as infantry types to some degree. Part of the reason I suspect that infantry units are being accused of breaking too easily.

Overall, IMHO, and in a less than technical explaination I'd say the BTS tweaks and changes between CMBO and CMBB, have resulted in a general trend by units to be far more concerned with their own preservation than before. Which, is altogether logical and realistic.

As Steve has pointed out on many occasions now, patience and not necessarily prowess is the key to success in CMBB.

[ November 15, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

I did some testing. Regular hull-down Su-100s against regular Mk IVs at 525m. I did not do many runs, but in all cases so far the Su-100s have never retreated unless gun damaged.

I also did a few runs with IS-2s. They occasionally would fire a single shot and then retreat, but usually would shoot it out to the bitter end.

I haven't tested ISU-122s, nor have I tested against anything other than Pz IVs, yet.

[Redwolf]

In isolated testing I am also not able to reproduce it.

If anyone wants the savegame from the ISU-122 always going back mail me.

[Triumvir]

Well, it was either go out in a blaze of glory charge or be picked off one by one while running for cover. The important thing is that none of the Soviet tanks stopped and ran.

[Sgt. Steiner]

It's definitely not just the Ivans that run away from danger. (Spoiler Alert!) While playing the Tiger Tiger! scenario as the Germans, several of my short-barrel Mk III's popped smoke and hauled ass as soon they saw/came under fire from advancing T-34's.

On the other hand, my platoon of long-barrel Mk III's showed no such fear and advanced steadily towards the T-34's, firing continuously. After a couple of the T-34's were knocked out, the rest started backing up to get away from the Mk III's.

And no, the Tigers in the scenario were on the other side of the map and out of sight, so that couldn't have been why the T-34's ran away.

After I thought about it awhile, it all made sense. The T-34 crews were mostly green, and the Mk III crews were veterans. The short-barrel Mk III crews were veterans also, but I can understand why they "advanced to the rear!"

[Dschugaschwili]

What was the experience rating of those tanks that retreated? Maybe low quality tanks are much more likely to back off than medium/high quality ones.

Dschugaschwili

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

What was the experience rating of those tanks that retreated? Maybe low quality tanks are much more likely to back off than medium/high quality ones.

As I said, regulars fighting regulars, in the case of my ISU-122.