700 Pts German Combined Arms Defense: What Would You Buy?

[Austrian Strategist]

Simply to get another discussion rolling:

You defend with the German Army in a 700pts QB against an American Attack.

Both sides use Combined Arms limits.

Americans have Regulars and/or Veterans, you may choose Veterans and/or Cracks.

Small map, July44, 20 turns, clear day, agricultural terrain, moderate amount of trees, small hills.

----------------

This is what I would buy:

1x Security Pl (Crack)

1x Mot Inf Pl (Crack)

1x Mg42 light (Veteran)

2x Mg42 heavy (Crack)

1x Panzerschreck (Crack)

1x Flak 88mm (Crack)

1x Artillery 75mm (Veteran)

5x AP Mines

Mines channel enemy soldiers into kill zones; Infantry, MGs and Artillery kill them. Flak stays hidden until I am confident it will kill all enemy tanks in the same turn. Panzerschreck is insurance in case a tank escapes Flak.

What would you use? Why?

[tools4fools]

50mm Pak

Company Rifle 44 (with two HMG's)

75 Arty FO

LMG

(all above vet)

75mm At gun (crack)

More infantry and AT assets are divided in two guns. 75mm should usaully do the job and is smaller.

or

Hetzer

50mm Pak

Company Rifle 44 (with two HMG's)

Panzerschreck

HMG

(all above vet)

Panzerschreck (crack)

Without Arty here, I personally don't like 75 Arty much, if attacker moves fast its rather useless.

Hetzer (if allowed) can be a though nut to crack; use as mobile AT gun.

[Redwolf]

In small defenses without Fionn limits it is hard to be prepared against all kinds of attack. If you are prepared for two routes of advance by thick Churchills or Jumbos you don't have points left to defend against a pure infantry and artillery attack. A mass of M8 HMC and Greyhounds will also pass AT defenses that are built for few slow tanks.

So assuming the opponent will come in "fair":

Assuming you want to buy an expesive gun: buy TRPs for the AT gun. Use mines to drive tanks into positions where the TRP is. Place a 2+combat and stealth HQ by the gun, even if that means the HQ will have to travel back to its platoon after the gun is dead. It is very worthwhile to buy whole companies on defense to get such an extra HQ.

The 75mm spotter is kinda useless. Buy big mortar FO if you can. 105mm is fine for US on defense, but the German one is too slow.

As the Germans it may be worthwhile to form a tank hunt team. Panzerschrecks are slow and vulnerable. A company HQ with two squads with two fausts each has a much better chance to kill a tank if you cannot make the tank go into an ambush and you have to move yourself.

I like sharpshooters. They might safe the life of your guns by blinding tanks and/or killing or supressing onboard mortars which target your gun. With much luck, you can kill or at least delay artillery spotters.

If you want to be guarded against more create armor selection on the part of the attacker, you generally have to go with small guns and a big-gun tank hunter. Only that ensures that you can cover several lanes with a high-penetraion AT gun and still have enough small guns to shoot up masses of light armor. In any case, don't forget to buy TRPs for the tank hunter. For small guns, the 37mm rocks, it can kill M8 HMCs, besides the usualy Flak benefits of high hit probablity and good HE load for the price. A mix of 50mm AT and 75mm infantry is also economically wise.

Instead of light-gun/thick-td You may also try Pueppchen and more AT infantry on maps with much cover.

Guns are useful even if you don't buy them, but they are much cheaper that way . The attacker always assumes you have guns and moves accordingly, which at least slows him down. You may seek to exploit that to form ambushes in terrain which would allow him to pass without fear of guns.

If you want to be creative yourself, and you play mainly for fun, you may get creative as well. One of my favorites (but too expensive for this game) is a AT pillbox with a 37mm flak right behind it. People will attack the pillbox with Greyhounds or Stuarts, which will be waxed by the 37mm flak. Also "nice" but 50:50 luck factorish is buying enough AT mines to completely close one side of the map for vehicles. Few attackers buy engineers.

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by redwolf:

In small defenses without Fionn limits it is hard to be prepared against all kinds of attack. If you are prepared for two routes of advance by thick Churchills or Jumbos you don't have points left to defend against a pure infantry and artillery attack. A mass of M8 HMC and Greyhounds will also pass AT defenses that are built for few slow tanks.

I know most general advice already. That´s why I made the problem very specific. Note that 'Americans' disallows Churchills, 'July44' disallows Super-Heavys, 'Combined Arms' makes all-out Infantry, all-out Armour, all-out Greyhounds impossible. I was really more interested in discussing precise (point-wise) solutions to a specific situation, because I believe there are no general rules that apply to every set-up.

[Austrian Strategist]

Tools:

Your 75+50 AT approach I find well worth trying out. Note you have some points left-over in your first example, so you could afford another HMG. I don´t like the Rifles44 so much, and I prefer 2 Cracks with Crack Support to a Company of Vets anyway, that´s the reason behind my choice of infantry, but it´s sure debatable. Your 2nd example would seem a tad risky to me; what if your opponent buys 5+ Platoons of Regulars? He might overrun you, or attrit you to death, I think.

[Sarge Saunders]

2 x Infantry Platoon (vet)

1 x Motorized Platoon (vet)

1 x Hetzer (crack)

1 x 120mm FO (vet)

1 x TRP

1 x Panzerschreck (vet)

This is just one idea. Note lack of MG teams but motorized inf squads carry 2 x LMGs to make up for it. Much is expected of the crack Hetzer. He must land and kill every AFV because his only backup is the Panzerschreck. TRP can help him. Also the TRP on a small map means there will be at least one obvious covered advance (a grove of trees, etc.) to use the TRP and drop the 120mm mortars on. The 120mm FO will no doubt have a devastating effect on 1 or 2 platoons of attacking infantry. TRP may also be placed on the first German MLR to help in counterattack by your reserve Motorized platoon.

The only weakness here is that Allies may have 2 Sherm(76) tanks. Hetzer can only shoot at one and even then has a slow rate of fire. Players concerned about that should leave one rifle platoon and take instead a 75mm Pak40 to help the Hetzer.

Cheers,

Sarge

[ June 10, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Redwolf]

Well, point taken, so lets talk this map. Although I think you underestimate the specialization that "combined arms" allows. If you assume that people take decent artillery in any case, and consider only the rest of the points, then these points can very well be spent mostly in tanks and vehicles combined or on the other hand in infantry and attack-useful infantry support - .50cals, 60mm mortars, Priest, M3A1.

So your very specific battle has light trees and small hills.

The small hills make guns a slight gamble. You risk that you will either find no suitable position with enough coverage. Or you may get too much coverage, reads too much fire from too many directions once it is spotted.

And you are right about the thick tanks. So, if expensive guns at all, I would take the 75mm PaK. You cannot expect the 88mm Flak to exploit its better HE capability against infantry, it will be dead after shooting at tanks, or it may not find targets in LOS after the tank battle.

The general openness of the terrain makes buying infantry platoons unattractive. They will just be shot up. Expensive infantry like motorized is out of question. Rifle 44 is bad because it is very weak once it loses one or two men, which will probably be one SMG less. On the other hand, their most important duty would be to protect guns from infantry rushes. Given the parameters, I would do that with HMGs instead, they are pretty robust. Or antipersonal minefields.

Overall, if I wanted to win I would go for Hetzer, a bunch of 20mm flaks, few 75mm infantry guns and 50mm Pak. I would also buy 50mm mortars, especially if you have good infantry platoons. Crack 50mm mortars, especially with some combat-+ HQ will hit standing Priests reliably in one turn. 81mm mortar FO for mixed annoyances. Don't buy expensive artillery spotters, they will have to run over this map and/or be in second story of houses to get LOS and an experienced opponents can kill them.

If you decide for few squads, you need something else cheap that can move. Artillery alone makes for a bad reserve. I like 20mm vehicles. People like the Wespe for this, but I probably don't have to tell you that it doesn't like crowded areas.

The SdKfz 251/2 mortar carrier has the potential to stop infantry rushes cold if you can keep it alife. Typically it would shoot left to right with solid cover in front.

Don't forget TRPs for your AT guns and/or tank hunter.

[ June 10, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Sarge Saunders]

I thought the example was moderate trees....

Just for fun, I generated a few maps with mod trees/small map/farmland/small hills. Interesting results in most cases: Defender tree cover was very good with attacker tree cover being poor. The hills are not a factor because the small map size really just tends to be gentle slopes instead of small hills anyway.

I disagree with the notion of not buying much or expensive infantry. I want to have enough infantry to stay hidden and then go toe-to-toe against the attacker's infantry when they come in close. Redwolf and I agree on the Hetzer. I would want to find a hull down position for it no doubt.

Interesting note about the 50mm mortars though....

BTW Redwolf, what would your specific OOB be?

-Sarge

[ June 10, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Redwolf]

I misread the original post and don't have CM in reach.

I'll keep my mouth shut until I can have an in-game look later today. 120mm mortars are not available in July, BTW, that changes defensive options quite a bit.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by redwolf:

120mm mortars are not available in July, BTW, that changes defensive options quite a bit.

They are, in fact, available in July 1944.

Please excuse me, I am not critical of your ideas at all.

Just curious....

[Slangton]

I'm confused, you can't use TRP's for onboard guns and AFV's can you? I was under the impression you can't...

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Slangton:

I'm confused, you can't use TRP's for onboard guns and AFV's can you? I was under the impression you can't...

The manual is not very clear on that, but yes, they increase the hit probablity of AT shots, both from guns and from tanks.

If you can buy (or get in a scenario) enough TRPs, you get a lot of benefits of defense back which brings it a lot close to reality. Things like Nashorns become useful. In CMBB fortifications are supposed to be cheaper, I hope that applies to TRPs, too.

[ June 10, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Priest]

CM is out of reach right now but I do find it interesting that in July 44 a lot of you are suggesting PAK 75mm over 88's. Neither of those guns would even be considered by me in a game of these few points and this early time. I would look no farther than the 50mm ATG for the Germans. And I heavily agree with the Hetzer arguement. Use the guns to protect the Hetzer and two 76mm Sherms do not stand a chance in Hades.

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

Tools:

I don´t like the Rifles44 so much, and I prefer 2 Cracks with Crack Support to a Company of Vets anyway, that´s the reason behind my choice of infantry, but it´s sure debatable. Your 2nd example would seem a tad risky to me; what if your opponent buys 5+ Platoons of Regulars? He might overrun you, or attrit you to death, I think.

I just checked: the allied player will not be able to buy more than 4 platoons of regular infantry (point restriction).

The reason why I would chose a COMPANY of regular rifle '44 is not because I like 'em; redwolf has already pointed out some reasons why I do not. I still would go for rifle '44 in this situation because you got only 700 points! And with the company you get the company HQ plus two HMG's and the inf platoons with a small discount. Check how much you spent on crack motorized infantry!

I forget 20mm weapons (either AA gun or HT) as mentioned by redwolf - they will deal with any .50 cal carrying US vehicle.

The main problem is the 700 points; can't buy much with it, I would rather go for more cheap stuff than for little expensive stuff.

Consider what the Allied player might get as well!

3-4 Tanks

heavy mortar FO

4 platoons rifle 44

several .50 cal vehicles

And you will have to defend the VL(s) as well - menas the attacker knows about where to find your infantry and guns. Another point for going for more infantry and the Hetzer.

or maybe go for even more mobility -

20mm AA gun

50mm AT gun

2 platoon of mot. inf.

2 HMG

plus

Hetzer

Puma

75mm HT

[Redwolf]

So as if I didn't embarass myself enough, here is my take:

I looked at some maps with these parameters. The small size means that you have a decent chance of getting a gun employed in a useful way. And the trees are in fact on the defender's side, interesting twist, I never noticed that. The terrain is ideal for guns, but only if you have several.

So here it goes, all unit veteran unless noted:

- Hetzer

- 2x security platoon

- crack 50mm mortar

- 20mm flak

- 2x 75mm infantry gun

- 120mm mortar spotter

- 2x TRP

- 1x AP mines

- 1x AT mines

I don't think 50mm Pak are useful here, the distances are so short that the better hit probablity doesn't buy you much. And I expect Shermans, which are not vulnerable to 50mm Paks from front. If he rolls in with Priests, the 20mm Flak and the mortar should take care of it.

No Panzerschreck, the woods patches and map layout and space don't let that appear to be suitable. If he gets too near the woods, you use the squads with Fausts, otherwise you have to rely on your Hetzer. if the Hetzer falls, you are in deep trouble.

A closer look at the guns leads me to believe the Flak may have a point over the 75mm Pak if you decide you want to snipe at big distances. The highly angled upper hull of the Shermans may be easier to penetrate at great distances. And the 100mm lower hull of the W models is nasty, too and easier for the 88. But as said above, I think I would go for the mobile big gun, towed small guns and short distances.

[ June 10, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[SturmSebber]

Hi,

Just to keep the discussion going, here are my 2 cents:

700 QB i chose:

(all veteran none crack)

1 * Sturmgeschütz IV 117pts

3 * 250/9 halftracks (20mm) 135 pts

1 * 88mm Püppchen 32pts

2 * SS motorized grenadiere 320pts

1 * 81 mm mortar artillery 86pts

1 * AP mines 10pts

total: a nice 700pts

-The Sturmg. is a great all round panzer

-Those halftracks are good as (although unlikely your opponent has an aircraft in such a small game)AA, supression/killing of infantry, supporting your own troops and they do have some anti-tank value.

- Püppchen is a cheap and deadly anti-tank weapon,tends to get killed rather quickly once it starts firing, but i often get those few kills i need with it.

-SS motorized are good infantry with decent firepower, i often get good results against armour with them too.

-If you want some artillery in those woods, 81 mm is cheap and acurate.

-Ap mines tend to consume too much points in small battles, but hey i had 10 pts left

I would never buy too static equipment in such small engagements.

greetings,

Sturmy

[ June 11, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: SturmSebber ]

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by Priest:

And I heavily agree with the Hetzer arguement. Use the guns to protect the Hetzer and two 76mm Sherms do not stand a chance in Hades.

There´s a problem with this: If he buys something like, say, 4xRifle44, 3xM10, 1x105mmArtillery, then, I believe, you are in deep trouble.

(Explanation: Rifles will kill your men, relying on numbers, M10s will kill your Hetzer, Artillery will kill your guns.)

[ June 11, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Austrian Strategist ]

[FFE]

Defending as Germans, I would purchase:

1 Vet Security Company

2 Vet Puppchens

1 Vet Hetzer

700 pt map is going to be small enough to allow the Puppchens to operate very nicely. The Hetzer can hopefully find a hull down position to cause the American player a nightmare.

The Vet Security Coy comes with 2*HMG's and 2*81's plus the Coy HQ, which can be valuable if things start to get prickly.

Option: In place of the Hetzer, 1 Vet StuH 42 (late). But this places a lot of stress on your Puppchens to perform.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Priest:

And I heavily agree with the Hetzer arguement. Use the guns to protect the Hetzer and two 76mm Sherms do not stand a chance in Hades.

There´s a problem with this: If he buys something like, say, 4xRifle44, 3xM10, 1x105mmArtillery, then, I believe, you are in deep trouble.

(Explanation: Rifles will kill your men, relying on numbers, M10s will kill your Hetzer, Artillery will kill your guns.)</font>

[GenSplatton]

Wow, great thread! As a relative CM newbie (I suck at it basically), I won't put forth my purchase. But the thing I find EXTREMELY intersting is the amount of Vet and above choices I see here. Most threads I have read in the past led me to beleieve people stayed away from higher priced experience levels. Heck, some of you are talking Crack units! Very surprising to me. I'd be real interested to hear why.

[bsd]

Originally posted by GenSplatton:

Heck, some of you are talking Crack units! Very surprising to me. I'd be real interested to hear why.

GenSplatton, it was specified in the first post that units had to be veteran or crack. Otherwise the selections would probably be different.

[Priest]

Austrian

The M10s will have to flank, that will have them run into the guns. Then they will be dead. The Hetzer might have to take on one. The guns may die, I agree, but after they have fired for about three turns.

Anywho my buy is this.

3 x Reg Rifle platoons

1 x Vet Shrek

1 x Reg Shrek

1 x Reg 81mm FO

1 x Reg Hetzer

5 x Reg 50mm ATG

I have 8 AT weapon systems plus Fausts. I also have decent direct HE fire if for a short period of time. With this many guns no single artillery barrage is going to take them all out.

Just my .02

[Tarquelne]

I have 8 AT weapon systems plus Fausts.

Bad boy! You bought Regular!

I think my thoughts are similar to redwolf's and Priest's (and others - many of the configurations are pretty similar.)

All Veteren.

I'd get the Hetzer.

I'd get a 50mm ATG, because I _am_ worried about relying on that lone Hetzer. IIRC, only a Sherman's lower hull would be a problem for the 50mm Pak at 100m.

I'd get a full company of Rifle infantry. Not as powerfull as the better armed infantry, but cheaper means more squads, and that means more 'fausts. (Plus you get that Coco and the 2 HMGs.)

So I'd be feeling pretty good about taking on the enemy armor.

With the remaining points I'd get

1 81mm FO (I'd miss redwolf's 120mm FO)

1 TRP

Which would certainly go some way towards hurting the American infantry.

If the American player bought lots of infantry (2 tanks + 81mm FO + 1 full rifle company + an extra platoon is a possible American force) I might start wishing for redwolf's 3 fixed guns... but I think I'd still rather have my mobile extra 3 squads rather than the immobile guns.

I was not pleased, btw, when I realized the American could afford a 105mm spotter and an 81mm spotter - 100 105 shells and 200 81mm shells. It made me even more keen on avoiding multiple fixed guns.

Huh... I just noticed that my force is even more similar to tools4fools'. (I even considered a Hetzer/Puma/75mm HT combo.) I would get the arty (mortars), since it's a small map I'd be confident about brining in down somewhere good. (But I certainly have a pro-artillery bias.)

I, too, went and looked at what the American player could get, btw. I did this before buying my own force.

[ June 14, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Redwolf]

For the record: the original post said veterans or cracks only.

I wouldn't buy the high-quality units voluntarily.

[JasonC]

One way to go would be HE armor, with the idea of avoiding the attacker's artillery and not trying to match his infantry man for man. Which you won't be able to do at the point odds and with higher unit qualities. Then you'd run the AT war on a shoestring, but with high quality stealthy shooters. Try to bag his AFVs early, then bring out yours and go to town.

E.g.

1 Crack Hummel

2 Vet 75mm Armored cars

2 Vet SS Motorized Pz Gdr Platoons

1 Crack Puppchen

1 Vet Schreck

1 Vet 20mm FLAK -or- 1 Crack Sniper

SS Platoons hold your line. Puppchen sets for AT ambush, with the schreck your backup to cover less expected lines of advance. If you take the FLAK it can deal with HTs, Scout Cars, M-20s, etc, to avoid revealing the Puppchen too soon. The alternate Sniper idea is to get TCs and button targets the moment the Puppchen opens up. All vehicles start "back", out of LOS.

The Crack Hummel may get a high number of HEAT rounds or not. Those will KO any tank. Even the HE will do lighter things. Obviously you have to be careful using it on vehicles, because it is low ROF and poorly armored. But between buttoning the target, distraction, and crack first round hit probability, it can help finish off his armor.

The HE load of the Hummel and 2 75mm ACs is high enough to clobber large amounts of infantry, if you've dealt with his vehicles. The ACs are preferable to SPWs because their front armor is sufficient to stop 50 cal fire. The Pz Gdrs can suppress zooks, and their limited ammo will not have to carry the whole infantry fight with that kind of HE backing.

The risk obviously is losing the armor war. The Hummel is thin-skinned; if it dies early you could be in trouble.

A more conventional defense would be based on hidden guns and an infantry "block", with a thick-fronted Hetzer to deal with attacking armor. That might look like this -

1 Vet Hetzer

2 SS Motorized Pz Gdr Platoons

2 Crack Schrecks

2 Vet 75mm Infantry Guns

1 Crack 37mm FLAK

5 AP minefields

The AT defense is much more robust than the previous. The Hetzer can kill all July US armor, and bounce most of their replies from the front. The crack 37mm will deal with light armor very effectively. The Crack schrecks, hidden, provide good AT ambush ability to suppliment the originally defiladed Hetzer.

String the AP mines in one continuous field ahead of the main infantry position. The idea is to prevent an infantry rush from killing your too-thin infantry. The IGs and 37mm FLAK have decent anti-infantry firepower, and deep ammo loads. His artillery can take them out once IDed, but there are 3 of them. Their firepower and the AP mines have to reduce the attacking infantry that reaches your own to a size 2 vet platoons can handle.

The danger here would be losing the infantry-HE war. Specifically, once your "block" is located, heavy artillery might thin your infantry to the point where he doesn't need much to overwhelm the remainder. The several light guns do have to worry about 60mm mortar counters. You can deal with these things by (1) having alternate infantry positions set up and dodging when you see spotting rounds and (2) setting up the guns in positions without LOS to early bits of cover where mortars are likely to be.

There is no point in buying artillery FOs in this situation. High quality FOs are dramatically overpriced. To get any decent firepower you'd need a 120mm mortar FO and a TRP, and as veterans, the lowest allowed, that would run you 134 points. It would need to take out 200 points to just break even with attacker odds. You can't afford that. To counter infantry, therefore, you need to use direct fire HE systems, AP minefields, or both.

A compromise force idea that includes a bit of both of the above is also possible, but involves even higher risks in the form of one key thin-skinned AFV. That is, you can go for a minefield block, several light guns, and a strong AT defense, and still keep the big vehicle HE idea. That would look like this -

1 Crack Hummel

2 Vet SS Motorized Pz Gdr Platoons

2 Crack Puppchens

2 Vet 37mm FLAK

5 AP Minefields

The AT defense is much stronger than the first option. Your infantry gets a minefield block to shelter behind. You still have the Hummel to come out and annihilate enemy infantry once vehicle threats are dealt with. But your gun-based anti-infantry firepower is limited. The 37mm FLAK can do that, to be sure, but they will break more than they will kill, and once revealed can be countered by artillery. If the thin Hummel dies, you could have infantry defense problems. More of your eggs are in one basket, compared to the first option with its 2 extra 75mm AFVs.

Note that all of the above is based on the high quality portion of the problem. With lower quality forces allowed (especially with later, post-November dates), you can try things that involve winning the infantry war outright, instead of using HE to counter him winning it. But with only 700 points and vet quality minimum, you can't buy enough infantry to attempt that.

I hope these ideas help.