Deadly Dave Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Youve probably all been in this situation....at the 50 second mark a mortar range finder drops 15m away , you know that the next move you are going to be bombarded with arty, simple, use withdraw and get out of there with no time delay So why cant i move sideways or even forward with no time delay for the same reason. (ie I knew when the first range finder shell lands i have about X seconds before the rest arrive) I cant imagine how my digital troops must feel when they turn to their Platoon HQ and he says 'sorry boys we cant run to our right for 13 seconds its just the way it is" How any times have we yelled at our electronic screen heros "come on come on- hurry" as we watch in horror 81mm shells dropping all around I understand the basis for delays but how about a shorter response time when squads are on 'alerted' mode or some other option that would be more in keeping with the comprehension that in thirteen seconds we know that we will be bombarded if we dont move NOW In summary I guess the only way of dealing with this is to have a range finding shell electronicaly change the status of all troops in a certain radius so that as soon as it lands everyone is on a alert and can 'withdraw' a certain distance ( in any direction) on a much shorter response time The arguament against this is of course that its only fortuitous that we saw the dropped shell at the 50 second mark have the option to make command changes at the end of that turn and so that advantage in itself is enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Why do you presume that you'd be able to detect the fall of the ranging round, in real life, fast enough to be able to react? Secondly, you don't think perhaps the definition of "withdraw" could well be to "move rapidly away from the enemy"? What I find interesting about the "withdraw" command is that it seems to assume retreat (ie runaway) rather than move backwards, using fire and movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowie Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Deadly Dave: In summary I guess the only way of dealing with this is to have a range finding shell electronicaly change the status of all troops in a certain radius so that as soon as it lands everyone is on a alert and can 'withdraw' a certain distance ( in any direction) on a much shorter response time <hr></blockquote> 2 cents here... Interesting idea, but not sure about the shorter response time because of the probing mortar fire, simply because it can be mistaken for a field mortar fire? (eg, 81mm onboard mortar/81mm FO) I think a general "PANIC and RUN" may be the solution. the The HQ can shout "Crap! it's going to start raining sh:t, get the hell out of here!!". (or: We can't hold this position any longer, get the hell out of here!!!) This command will have short response time (5~10 seconds), but cannot be cancelled, nor modified. Once given this command, the units will start a mad run (while panic'n) to the given location, but once arrived at the location, it'll take a few minutes to recover from the panic status. This command will be most useful to Regular/Green troops, but won't be of much use to Crack/Elite units since the response time is very short. I know it's probably too late to modify CMBB engine, but maybe a good idea for CM3? Any taker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 In a normal movement order, the troops are told with some specificity where they should go -- like 10 meters inside the treeline past those two houses on the ridge...but don't go directly there, veer around and use the wall for cover. In withdrawal, I think the troops are just told to "bug out!" That's quicker . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly Dave Posted January 21, 2002 Author Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian: Why do you presume that you'd be able to detect the fall of the ranging round, in real life, fast enough to be able to react? What is the delayed time in real life warfare. Secondly, you don't think perhaps the definition of "withdraw" could well be to "move rapidly away from the enemy"? Yes i understand that but my prompt was the delay time for move Bac/wds away versus delay time for sideways ( in CM life) why is there a differance? if you can move in a certain direction with no delay why not in all directions What I find interesting about the "withdraw" command is that it seems to assume retreat (ie runaway) rather than move backwards, using fire and movement.<hr></blockquote> that how i understand it also but surely if you are being attacked by infantry on your right flank then away doesnt mean backwards away means (lets say ) run left if we are indeed running away from fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly Dave Posted January 21, 2002 Author Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: In a normal movement order, the troops are told with some specificity where they should go -- like 10 meters inside the treeline past those two houses on the ridge...but don't go directly there, veer around and use the wall for cover. In withdrawal, I think the troops are just told to "bug out!" That's quicker .<hr></blockquote> Isnt that what bad dog means if your under impending mortar fire then "bug out ' is the same deal but why backwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Deadly Dave: Isnt that what bad dog means if your under impending mortar fire then "bug out ' is the same deal but why backwards<hr></blockquote> Because withdrawal is usually backwards? Just a thought. This is basically the 'every man for himself' command that Bad Dog talks about below. If you want anything more complicated (e.g. 'move NE 250 yards to that ridge, then turn towards enemy line again, dig in, 2nd section to cover, 1st section to provide scouting), you will have to deal with command delays - they simulate the time it takes for your order to filter down to your troops. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bad Dog: I think a general "PANIC and RUN" may be the solution. the The HQ can shout "Crap! it's going to start raining sh:t, get the hell out of here!!". (or: We can't hold this position any longer, get the hell out of here!!!)<hr></blockquote> That is the withdrawal command as it is in the game, as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Ya, the arbtrary 'to the rear' direction of withdrawal order is pretty pointless at the short scale environ as the CM battlefield. If I understand corectly, CMBB has unkinked the 'withdrawal' command to be ominidirectional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 I think the withdraw command is way too powerful. Withdraw commands are executed instantly, by all troops, unless pinned by enemy fire. When the arty barrage starts, none of your troops, even the conscripts, do the cower thing unless under direct fire. Withdrawing towards the enemy makes no sense. For scenarios, the withdrawal direction should be settable by the senario designer as EITHER a map edge or a single point on the map. If you're surrounded, withdrawing should move you away from the enemy, (which would be towards the center of the map). -marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by xerxes: For scenarios, the withdrawal direction should be settable by the senario designer as EITHER a map edge or a single point on the map. If you're surrounded, withdrawing should move you away from the enemy, (which would be towards the center of the map).<hr></blockquote> You do that at the moment by setting a friendly map-edge. This is quite important, since it also determines the direction in which units rout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 But what about a center point option for routing/withdrawing in a "surrounded" scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly Dave Posted January 21, 2002 Author Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas: That is the withdrawal command as it is in the game, as I understand it.<hr></blockquote> Perhaps the misundersatnding is from the definition of withdraw command what if we called it a disperse command (because we are under impending mortar attack) then we can ask the question why backwards? but my other question is why do we have no delay for withdraw (disperse) when the same troops that want to run to another location have to wait 13 seconds. If they can react with no time delay BACKWARDS they should be able to do it in any direction perhaps the withdraw command could make them more vulnerable and hence risk taking more casulaties so that we would use the withrdraw command more catiously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Deadly Dave: perhaps the withdraw command could make them more vulnerable and hence risk taking more casulaties so that we would use the withrdraw command more catiously<hr></blockquote> There is an increased chance of withdrawing units panicking or breaking, according to the manual; I'm not sure how great the chance is, although it doesn't seem to affect generally good order squads much. It's probably easier to start a withdrawal than to stop one, so that's probably what the morale penalty simulates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: There is an increased chance of withdrawing units panicking or breaking, according to the manual; I'm not sure how great the chance is, although it doesn't seem to affect generally good order squads much. It's probably easier to start a withdrawal than to stop one, so that's probably what the morale penalty simulates.<hr></blockquote> Yep - withdrawal means that the unit goes down one level (i.e. from 'alerted' to 'cautious', or from 'cautious' to 'panicked' or whatever it is called). So there is a real risk if you use the command that you will have trouble stopping the rout. I think that is fairly realistic. I think what DD is asking for is a command sequence where the unit is dispersed, but then reassembled. I think that under battlefield conditions that would be quite unrealistic in the time-frame of a CMBO battle, unless the orders where to assemble are given at the same time as the order to disperse, in which case there should be a time lag. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 I have asked this before: why is widrawal allowed only towards the home/friendly base line (=map edge) ? Widrawing perpendicular or opposite to that map orientation is a no-no which I can not understand. Why can it not be determined by the unit facing or some other factor ? Being outflanked does fall into the CMBO/BB timeframe and there are times when you'd really want to widraw towards some other direction than your base line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tero: Being outflanked does fall into the CMBO/BB timeframe and there are times when you'd really want to widraw towards some other direction than your base line.<hr></blockquote> Wading in. The problem is what you see is not what you get. You can see where to withdraw to but Jack Smack can't see for turds - so reformulating a new withdraw would fall under the command structure ordering a withdrawal to this new point. What would be required is a reset function that you could incorporate. How's that? It would be something like the (I forget the name) crowning (my mind!)? in chess. Moving the king to the full interior of whatever side and the rook out - you know what I mean? He adds plantively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Castling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JonS: Castling?<hr></blockquote> Merci, mon ami! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowie Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas: ... a command sequence where the unit is dispersed, but then reassembled. I think that under battlefield conditions that would be quite unrealistic in the time-frame of a CMBO battle, unless the orders where to assemble are given at the same time as the order to disperse, in which case there should be a time lag. Just my opinion.<hr></blockquote> Indeed there'll be many issues to overcome (especially dealing with the time-frame of a 30 minute battle) in order to regroup/reassemble the panic stricken troops. One can always dream to command the troops to do so... Until BTS is convinced that there's a need to do so, its just another item to add on my "wish list". :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas: I think what DD is asking for is a command sequence where the unit is dispersed, but then reassembled. I think that under battlefield conditions that would be quite unrealistic in the time-frame of a CMBO battle, unless the orders where to assemble are given at the same time as the order to disperse, in which case there should be a time lag. Just my opinion.<hr></blockquote> Makes me think of PQ17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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