Possible armour bug for the IS-2

[Amedeo]

I was a bit puzzled by the front hull armour values in CMBB for late war variants of the IS-2 tank. For example the IS-2 Model 1944 is stated to have the hupper hull plate 105mm think, angled 60° from vertical and the lower plate 127mm thick angled 30° from vertical.

Looking at the actual armour arrangements for the front hull you'll notice that the reverse is true, i.e it's the thicker upper plate to be more sloped

Moreover, it seems that the early IS-2 Model 1944 in the game has a sligtly higher ROF than earlier and later models. This could be due to the adoption of a drop breech in the D-25 gun, but is this is taken into consideration, it should be also considered for the ISU-122S and later IS-2 models.

Comments?

Amedeo

[ October 19, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Amedeo ]

[Amedeo]

You can also take a look at the various hull armour configurations for the IS-2 tank here .

Regards,

Amedeo

[Amedeo]

bump

[Captain Wacky]

CM

Upper hull 105mm at 60*

Lower hull 127mm at 30*

Link

Upper hull 120mm at 60*

Lower full 120mm at 30*

I have seen several other sites that agree with the 120mm thickness on both parts of the hull. Maybe there is a bug here.

Onwar.com also has the armor values as 120mm-http://www.onwar.com/tanks/ussr/fis2m.htm

[ October 19, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]

[Captain Wacky]

Somebody has to know the answer to this

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

CM

Upper hull 105mm at 60*

Lower hull 127mm at 30*

Link

Upper hull 120mm at 60*

Lower full 120mm at 30*

I have seen several other sites that agree with the 120mm thickness on both parts of the hull. Maybe there is a bug here.

Onwar.com also has the armor values as 120mm-http://www.onwar.com/tanks/ussr/fis2m.htm

If you look at the section drawings in Fig. 6 you'll notice that in fact it should probably be 120mm@60° for the upper hull and 100mm@30° for the lower hull.

I think this is something that need to be addressed in a future patch.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Captain Wacky]

Yeah, but who knows whether those websites are accurate. Never trust anything without a cover

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yep. Appears to be a mistake.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Yep. Appears to be a mistake.

where is the mistake?

I can't tell

is it in CMBB?

should this issue be posted to the "what should be in the Patch?" thread?? :confused:

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Yep. Appears to be a mistake.

where is the mistake?

I can't tell

is it in CMBB?

should this issue be posted to the "what should be in the Patch?" thread?? :confused:

-tom w</font>

[Denizen]

While we are at it, I would like to point out that few sources agree on the turret armor of the IS-2, RBF lists it as 100mm, which is what was is used in CMBB, but according to german photos with thicknesses painted on, it ranges between 95 and 110mm. Also Steven Zaloga lists the turret front as being 160mm in all of his books, but I don't know where that figure came from.

[rexford]

The armor figures in CMBB for the IS tanks is from a British Intelligence report published after the war, which is based in part on data given to British operatives in Russia during the war. Paul Lakowski loaned me the report, and I submitted the data to the CMBB design team.

I checked the British figures against American analysis of IS tanks found in the ruins after the Berlin fighting, and German analysis of captured IS vehicles.

IS-1 and early IS-2 with 30° driver plate

105mm glacis at 30°

95mm nose at 30°

100mm turret front and mantlet rounded

IS-2 late model with 60° glacis

110mm glacis at 60°

127mm nose at 30°

100mm turret front and mantlet rounded

A German photo shows 110mm for IS-2 mantlet.

The German photo's show design thicknesses, since armor would rarely be exactly 95mm or 105mm thick when measured in the field.

[Karl_Smasher]

Originally posted by rexford:

I checked the British figures against American analysis of IS tanks found in the ruins after the Berlin fighting, and German analysis of captured IS vehicles.

IS-2 late model with 60° glacis

110mm glacis at 60°

127mm nose at 30°

100mm turret front and mantlet rounded

A German photo shows 110mm for IS-2 mantlet.

The German photo's show design thicknesses, since armor would rarely be exactly 95mm or 105mm thick when measured in the field.

So the often quoted Russian military zone figure of the IS-2(1944) front glacis 120mm@60degrees is wrong then, you say it measured 110mm.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Denizen:

While we are at it, I would like to point out that few sources agree on the turret armor of the IS-2, RBF lists it as 100mm, which is what was is used in CMBB, but according to german photos with thicknesses painted on, it ranges between 95 and 110mm. Also Steven Zaloga lists the turret front as being 160mm in all of his books, but I don't know where that figure came from.

If Steve Zaloga was right about the 160mm turret there would not have been a need for the IS 3 due to the vulnerability of the IS 2 to the standard German PaK 40. The IS 2 could not have the turret further up armoured due to chassis restrictions.