CMBB Tank speeds Question

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Hi folks,

While I like most of the changes in the CMBB demo, one thing I have really noticed is the apparent slowness of the tanks across hard dry ground compared with the speeds in CMBO, so I ran some speed tests in the Citadel scenario to get some data in that regard.

Both the PZIII and PZIV in CMBB are rated at a 25mph top speed. Both have the same engine and power.

Under warm, dry conditions, the approx. speeds on the flat that I obtained for both models were as follows:

Road

FAST MOVE = 15mph (24kph) (ie only 60% of rated top speed)

HUNT = 4.5mph (7kph)

MOVE TO CONTACT = 4.5mph (7kph)

MOVE = 3.5mph (6kph)

Steppe

FAST MOVE = 7.5mph (12kph) (30% of rated top speed)

HUNT = 4.5mph (7kph)

MOVE TO CONTACT = 4.5mph (7kph)

MOVE = 3.5mph (6kph)

The tests I used were easy to setup. Just aim 100m in front of the vehicle, then extend the desired movement command line to that exact point. Then press "go", and start counting 2 seconds AFTER the AFV has started moving (this roughly compensates for the initial acceleration period). If you count 30secs for the 100 metre "dash", Divide 1 hour (3600secs) by 30. In that case, the result is 120 lots of 100metres = 12000 metres in 1 hour = 12 kph.

I'm wondering whether the speeds I obtained in the CMBB demo are typical of what will be in the final version. My own feeling is that the FAST MOVE speed on both the Dry Steppe and the Dry Road is too slow.

What will the FAST MOVE speeds be in damp, wet or snow conditions if this is as fast as they can do in DRY conditions? I wonder how a BLITZKRIEG style attack can be mounted, since FAST MOVE spotting is poor and all the other available speeds that allow much better spotting appear to be relatively VERY slow - not much faster than a brisk walk.

My thinking is that perhaps the "MOVE TO CONTACT" speed should be a bit faster - say half way between the current "move to contact" and the "fast move" speeds. I don't quite understand why both the "move to contact" and "hunt" speeds in the Demo should be virtually identical.

Any thoughts on this by you learned lot would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,

Aussiejeff

PS: Roll on release date!! So long as Seanachai doesn't get his copy before me, I'll be happy!!

[ September 18, 2002, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: AussieJeff ]

[YankeeDog]

I'm no authority on the matter, but I sincerely doubt any tank reaches top speed in 2 seconds - Assuming top speed in 25mph, even some passenger cars would have trouble achieving this mark. I'd wager you'd need something more like 10 seconds to get up to top speed.

[Stickel]

...I looked into the book "PANZER und andere Kampffahrzeuge von 1916 bis heute"...for the Pzkpfw III ( Ausf. H- N )we got a roadspeed of 40 kph, same is for the Pzkpfw IV...cross- country- speed for the III is 18 kph and for the IV 20kph...so my opinion is, that the guys from

" battlefront " realized that, that the tanks are on the battlefield and not on transport, the enemy could be hidden behind each hill and the commanders also got to save fuel, in order to do further movements...

[ParaBellum]

What YankeeDog said.

I just did another test with PzIV and gave him enough time to accelerate. I took the time he needed for 500m (not completely flat) and the Pz IV took less than 50s for the distance.

That would be 36-40 kph, seems right to me.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by AussieJeff:

The tests I used were easy to setup. Just aim 100m in front of the vehicle, then extend the desired movement command line to that exact point. Then press "go", and start counting 2 seconds AFTER the AFV has started moving (this roughly compensates for the initial acceleration period).

Actually it doesn't, it is a too short for full acceleration. I'm afraid you need to re-run the tests with more allowance to get up to speed, and you also have to make sure the terrain is even, I think CMBB will have tanks slowed down on slopes.

Maybe we'll have downhill races next week

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I'm no authority on the matter, but I sincerely doubt any tank reaches top speed in 2 seconds - Assuming top speed in 25mph, even some passenger cars would have trouble achieving this mark. I'd wager you'd need something more like 10 seconds to get up to top speed.

You would probably be right there YankeeDog, but generally they are not getting anywhere near top speed. Except for the KV-1S which takes 50secs to cover 500m = 22.5mph (83% of rated top speed of 27mph). The PZIV tank I can only get up to 72% of rated top speed on the road, so it doesn't take too long to reach 18mph. Any deficit is averaged out over the distance anyway, so the difference if I'm out by a couple of seconds is "only" approx. 2kph over 200m. I wonder why the Russian tanks can attain 83% of top speed vs the Germans 60% on the road?

Originally posted by Stickel:

...I looked into the book "PANZER und andere Kampffahrzeuge von 1916 bis heute"...for the Pzkpfw III ( Ausf. H- N )we got a roadspeed of 40 kph, same is for the Pzkpfw IV...cross- country- speed for the III is 18 kph and for the IV 20kph...so my opinion is, that the guys from

" battlefront " realized that, that the tanks are on the battlefield and not on transport, the enemy could be hidden behind each hill and the commanders also got to save fuel, in order to do further movements...

Hey, thanks for that info, Stickel! Interesting. Though I guess if your "battlefield factors" theory was consistent, the Russian tanks shouldn't be attaining 83% of top speed vs the German 72%.

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

What YankeeDog said.

I just did another test with PzIV and gave him enough time to accelerate. I took the time he needed for 500m (not completely flat) and the Pz IV took less than 50s for the distance.

That would be 36-40 kph, seems right to me.

Hmmm...... Those figures seemed a bit fast compared to mine, so I retested on the flat section of road just in front of the Germans setup position (set the russians way back out of sight at other end of map). Dead flat 200metres stretch. I got a little better than before. 25secs for 200metres or 29kph (18mph or 72% of top speed).

Originally posted by Redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AussieJeff:

The tests I used were easy to setup. Just aim 100m in front of the vehicle, then extend the desired movement command line to that exact point. Then press "go", and start counting 2 seconds AFTER the AFV has started moving (this roughly compensates for the initial acceleration period).

Actually it doesn't, it is a too short for full acceleration. I'm afraid you need to re-run the tests with more allowance to get up to speed, and you also have to make sure the terrain is even, I think CMBB will have tanks slowed down on slopes.

</font>

[AUSSIEJEFF]

All quiet on the Eastern Front. In Australia that is!!

Well,

I've tried some more Citadel Tank speed test runs. Lined up 6 PZIII's (then 6 PZIV's) at the back of the setup zone on the flattest section. Selected 200m moves. Each tank has a different command eg:

Tank 1 = Fast move

Tank 2 = Contact

Tank 3 = Hunt

Tank 4 = Move

Tank 5 = Hull Down

Tank 6 = Shoot and Scoot

Result (also confirmed with PZIV runs):

Tanks 1 & 6 arrive at the 200metre mark at almost identical times. So Shoot and Scoot is the same speed as Fast Move.

Tanks 2 & 3 arrive at the 200m mark almost at the same time, but take approximately twice the time of the first two to get there.

Tanks 4 and 5 arrive at the 200m mark (eventually), but take approx. 2.5 times the the time of the first two to get there.

My question now, having not found an answer in the Demo manual or any other threads, is whether the relative spotting ability during the movement phase for the SHOOT and SCOOT command is better than the movement phase for the FAST MOVE command (which the Demo manual lists as poor).

Given they are both the same speed over the ground during the fast movement phase, I suppose they have the same "poor" spotting ability built in. Can someone confirm if this is the case?

Thanks in advance,

AJ

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by AussieJeff:

You would probably be right there YankeeDog, but generally they are not getting anywhere near top speed. Except for the KV-1S which takes 50secs to cover 500m = 22.5mph (83% of rated top speed of 27mph).

That makes sense actually, the KV-1S (S for Speed/Skorostnoi) was specifically designed to be faster than it's KV-1 predeccesor. It also had an improved gearbox and transmission that were designed to further improve tactical speed. So one would expect it to be closer to it's max speed under combat conditions.

It also makes sense that the german tanks have quite a bit of speed reserve as they were supposed to mount Blitzkrieg style attack, ie storm through the enemy rear

The difference between german and russian tanks in general will be hard to asses without a full version though. But with a full version it will be possible to set up a number of more usefull test that will allow comparison between various tanks. So that it is possible to see what causes these differences (for example having more gears helps!)

[ September 20, 2002, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by AussieJeff:

Given they are both the same speed over the ground during the fast movement phase, I suppose they have the same "poor" spotting ability built in. Can someone confirm if this is the case?

Shoot and Scoot is used to quickly move into a known position, so I would think that the "move" part is the same as Fast Move and the command only effects what the unit does next. But that's afaik of cours

[Foxbat]

Some general info on tank powerplants to start putting things in perspective:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Tank Power Gears weight Speed(off-road)

tonnes in kmh ratio

Pz III 300hp 10/6 20 40(20) 50%

Pz IV 300hp 6 20-25 40(20) 50%

Pz V 700hp 8(?) 45 45(25) 52%

Pz VI 700hp 8 55+ 38(10+) 40%

Pz VII 700hp 8 65+ 35(15) 49%

T-34 450hp 4/5 30 55(30) 55%

KV-1 600hp 5 47 35(16) 45%

KV-1S 600hp 5 43 43(18) 42%

IS-2 520hp 8 46 37(17) 46%</pre>

[Frunze]

As I understand it, the difference between "Hunt" and "move to contact" is only that "move to contact" means the tank will stop after acquiring any target, even an infantry unit.

With "hunt" it would stop after spotting a tank or gun, as in CMBO.

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

Some general info on tank powerplants to start putting things in perspective:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Tank Power Gears weight Speed(off-road)

tonnes in kmh ratio

Pz III 300hp 10/6 20 40(20) 50%

Pz IV 300hp 6 20-25 40(20) 50%

Pz V 700hp 8(?) 45 45(25) 52%

Pz VI 700hp 8 55+ 38(10+) 40%

Pz VII 700hp 8 65+ 35(15) 49%

T-34 450hp 4/5 30 55(30) 55%

KV-1 600hp 5 47 35(16) 45%

KV-1S 600hp 5 43 43(18) 42%

IS-2 520hp 8 46 37(17) 46%</pre>

The most obvious thing is that those russian tanks have a huge amount of power compared, and very few gears. Basically they're 'muscle tanks', relying on torque and acceleration to get around.

The germans opted for the other extreme, with initially fairly low output petrol engines that could still attain high speeds thanks to the highly advanced gearboxes (most of them automatics to!).

The second thing that sticks out is that the ratio of road to off-road speed is all over the place, the amount of it's topspeed that it could still achieve under adverse circumstances is ~50% with some being obviously better or worse, but not always as expected. The Koningstiger for example is actually a pretty nimble vehicle, and even the original Tiger isn't all bad -although I think the 40kmh road speed is a bit optimistic, assuming the crew wants to keep the tank in one piece.

[Michael Dorosh]

I've driven cross country on steppe (prairie, actually) in a 2 1/2 ton truck as well as the Iltis - speeds go WAY down even in so called "open ground" - the tall grass on the steppe means you won't see any holes or dips, and if you don't want to break your neck or kill your passengers - you slow way down. I can only guess it is the same for a tracked vehicle with restricted vision.

Open ground ... isn't.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by AussieJeff:

Thanks a bunch for your informative reply. Wow! The T-34 top speed spec of 55kph on road is mighty impressive given the 4/5 gears it had. It appears to be the greyhound of that pack!

It probably took an insane amount of time to reach that speed though, and given that because of the war they only got round to installing 5-speed boxes in 1942 it wasn't all that usefull -but still nice for the brochure

Was the PZIII 10 speed an auto box? If not, pity the poor bugger driving the thing who wants to get somewhere in a hurry!

[EDIT] I looked it up, the Pz III gearbox was automatic, just as the other german boxes with 10 forward and one reverse gear. They later replaced with a "normal" 6 box.

Compare that with the 'four forward, one back' put-it-in-to-gear-before-starting gearboxes used in early KV's :eek:

[ September 20, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I've driven cross country on steppe (prairie, actually) in a 2 1/2 ton truck as well as the Iltis - speeds go WAY down even in so called "open ground" - the tall grass on the steppe means you won't see any holes or dips, and if you don't want to break your neck or kill your passengers - you slow way down. I can only guess it is the same for a tracked vehicle with restricted vision.

Open ground ... isn't.

Spend a few hours in the back of a 5-ton on the roads at Pendleton and your ass will never be the same

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Originally posted by Frunze:

As I understand it, the difference between "Hunt" and "move to contact" is only that "move to contact" means the tank will stop after acquiring any target, even an infantry unit.

With "hunt" it would stop after spotting a tank or gun, as in CMBO.

Thanks for pointing that out Frunze. I also found that detailed in the CMBB Demo manual. I wonder which of those two will be the most used or useful in CMBB for commanding armour? My guess would be "hunt".

FYI I just ran PZIV's and III's side by side again using the FAST MOVE, HUNT and MOVE commands only after re-reading the CMBB demo guide which says the "HUNT" command is a <U>medium speed</U> command while the "MOVE" command is <U>walking</U> speed.

Well, as usual in all my tests so far, the FAST MOVE command gets the PZV's and III's to cover 200m of relatively flat steppe from press "GO" to "whoa" in approx. 60 secs - or one complete turn.

The tanks given the "HUNT" command cover approximately 100m or 50% of the "FAST MOVE" distance. However, the "MOVE" command tanks (which are supposed to be walking speed) finish very close behind the "HUNT" command vehicles.

Am I wrong to expect that, since the CMBB Demo manual states the "HUNT" command is a <U>medium</U> speed, that it would be significantly faster than a tank given the <U>walking speed</U> "MOVE" command??

I feel that a medium speed "HUNT" commanded tank should cover roughly halfway the distance between a fast speed FAST MOVE commanded tank and a slow speed MOVE commanded tank (given that all three are the same tanks on the same ground etc etc).

This appears not to be the case in the testing I have done with the demo. I guess I'll have to wait for the full game to arrive one day in Oz {4 weeks?}, then continue tests with ALL the AFV's to see if this is consistent. Unless someone else who HAS got the full version already can VOLUNTEER to do that? hehe

Any comments appreciated nevertheless.

AJ

[Foxbat]

Just a quick note on speeds, and their meaning.

The top and off-road speeds are theoretical numbers, that may mean different things at different times.

For example the T-34 engine is rated at 400hp service power, 450 peak and 500hp at "WEP". If your T-34 is trudging along a road towards the front it is unlikely to go anywhere near 55 kph, only 400hp is authorized and the road is likely to be less smooth than the one the topspeed was set on.

Off-road is an even dodgier figure, the highest off-road speed is generally set at the max the tank/suspension can take (as mentioned the occupants may be less pleased with this speed) and the listed speed is often a best case scenario. For example IS-2 was rated 22-17-15 by the sovs, with 22kph being the 'brochure figure' but 17-15 representing more realistic off-road conditions.

[Michael Emrys]

AJ, I'm still not convinced that you are giving the tanks enough time to accelerate up to speed. You need to control for variables in acceleration. I guess you'll have to wait for the full version before you can do what I have in mind.

And that is to set up a scenario with a flat map at least half a kilometer long. Probably a full kilometer is better. Put the kind of terrain you want to test for on it. Start your tanks on the back edge with the movement order you want to test and with the waypoint all the way to the front edge and let them accelerate for a full turn. Then measure how far they are from the front edge (you can use the LOS tool for that). Now let them run another full turn and measure again. Subtract the last measurement from the first and that gives you how many meters it travels in one minute.

Tanks were really slow to accelerate and for some I'm not sure that even a full minute is enough time to get up to speed, assuming that BTS has modeled it accurately.

Michael

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

AJ, I'm still not convinced that you are giving the tanks enough time to accelerate up to speed. You need to control for variables in acceleration. I guess you'll have to wait for the full version before you can do what I have in mind.

And that is to set up a scenario with a flat map at least half a kilometer long. Probably a full kilometer is better. Put the kind of terrain you want to test for on it. Start your tanks on the back edge with the movement order you want to test and with the waypoint all the way to the front edge and let them accelerate for a full turn. Then measure how far they are from the front edge (you can use the LOS tool for that). Now let them run another full turn and measure again. Subtract the last measurement from the first and that gives you how many meters it travels in one minute.

Tanks were really slow to accelerate and for some I'm not sure that even a full minute is enough time to get up to speed, assuming that BTS has modeled it accurately.

Michael

Aww shucks! You mean your not offering to beat me to it Michael? Damn. So I've gotta wait another 4 weeks for the pre-ordered pidgeon post to flutter it's way to Perth before I can set to it?

Sigh ........... 4 weeks of scrolling through 30,000 CMBB screenies, 25,000 CMBB AAR's ..

Double Sigh ......

AJ