Urban Shocker Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 ...the strategic and the tactical. The big picture is so important. If someone could combine the operational art of war with combat mission I would be set for a long time. Don't get me wrong I love tactics but strategy is fascinating as well. This PWG would take each players movements and decide where battles were to be fought and allowed the user to either fight the battle or let the computer decide the outcome in some way. So many elements like lines of communication, supply, and longer term engineering feats are left out of tactical games could be included in the PWG. There is definite interest in this among war gamers as evidenced by the ideas pertaining to and conductance of campaigns using CM. Adding strategic elements adds more meaning to battles then simply I won or I lost. You cannot just throw your force to the wind for victory because when the sun rises tomorrow you'll be given another objective. If you lose a battle that provides the gap necessary for the opponents tanks infiltrate your rear areas then you're in some serious trouble! Do you risk pulling a battalion from your left flank to aid your right? It seems as though this impressive game we love challenges us to be good captains or majors but with some work it could also challenge us to become good generals and field marshals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaphank Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 ...and think of the multiplayer possibilties!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Urban Shocker: ...the strategic and the tactical. The big picture is so important. If someone could combine the operational art of war with combat mission I would be set for a long time...<hr></blockquote> Join the CMMC then It has everything you could want (well, up to Corps level anyway) CMMC Regards JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Urban Shocker, hi, Yes, I agree, and could mention a few others that I know wish for something similar. Creating a high quality game on the scale of Squad Leader/CM was, in my view, the first challenge. This is now done to a quality I could never have hoped for. However, the second challenge, in my view, is to combine a quality operational game with a re-write of CM. This would be a big challenge, but someone, one day, will do it even if BTS do not. My wish is that BTS do it because I trust them to do a really fine, in fact stunning job. All the best, Kip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Shocker Posted January 16, 2002 Author Share Posted January 16, 2002 I agree with you Kip. Yet there is an abundance of tactical games. Is it because that's what poeple want...probably. But I do think that there is a lot of interest in the strategic level combined with the tactical that is not being met. CM is a refreshing change from the hex-based stuff (which I enjoy). I am getting a little sick, though, of computer war game developers coming out with "innovative" games which still revolve around pushing pieces around on a hex-based map. I am starting to think the problem is generational. Many of the people developing games grew up playing hex-based board games and cannot think outside the box (or hex). Regarding CMMC, I think that it is a great thing. I've been to the site several times. I have not joined because I don't think I can make the consistent time commitment it would require. Damn...if someone could take what those guys have accomplished and put it into code...put me on the waiting list for that game. [ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Urban Shocker ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Yes, agree absolutely CM IMHO could be "extended" with a strategic layer, as i know there where already some "handmade" attempts to go in that direction. CM with it's perfect tactical level engine (well almost the best imagineable..) would be absolutely great and open up a vast multiplayer universe... If the CM-engineers could implement some API's (Applicationinterfaces) into the tactic level engine a third party could build a strategic level engine. Very interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 HRMMMPHHHH (clearing throat) CMMC! oh by the way CMMC! oh yeah and..... CMMC! just so you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Shocker Posted January 16, 2002 Author Share Posted January 16, 2002 I would say that adding a little logistics would also by important. Keeping open lines of communications for supplies, weather and terrain effects on movement, and that sort of thing. Like I said before, CMMC is a great thing but some of us cannot make the commitment. Is it that hard to incorporate CMMC elements into a game? Probably not but would it sell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 ...girls and beer (IMHO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stixx Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 I really do doubt that BTS will incorporate a strategic element on the scale we want in to CM. I think they might give us a basic strategic element in the engine rewrite like being able to carry your forces over to another battle etc. As many advocates have already mentioned the CMMC is the closest will we get for a long time. I doubt it would be possible to incorporate something as in-depth as the CMMC in to CM. CM was designed with a certain scale in mind and has turned out to be the best game ever produced in that category. If you want a campaign join the CMMC!!! My 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 bimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAdmiral Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 The total war concept is what I have been waiting for these past 12 years. Strategic/Operational/Tactical all rolled into one. CM is a good fragment but its only a fragment. Lets put it all together and they will come...... Brigadier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFawlty Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 I agree with Urban Shocker that CMMC is a good looking way to handle this. But like him I have a consistent time problem. And I also await the game that FAdmiral mentioned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Guys, The time CMMC takes is dependent on the position that you take in CMMC. Also it is dependent on the level in which you play (CORP,DIVISIONAL,BRIGADE). To be honest some positions do take a lot of time, others take only a small burst of time and the time it takes to play a CMBO game. We have open spots now and I would encourage any body interested to at least look into it, it is by far the best game experience I have ever had. [ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Priest ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Checked the CMMC site, looks great. PC only, though. Foiled again. Anything like this for Mac. Maybe I can run it on my Virtual PC. A single player version, utilizing basic AI movements would be great for those of us with schedules permitting only those 4 AM CM sessions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Shocker Posted January 17, 2002 Author Share Posted January 17, 2002 I appreciate the efforts of the CMMCer's to get us involved with something that might scratch the itch some of us feel.. The basic point still remains that a game combining the strategic, operational, and (semi) real time tactical combat in different theaters and at different scales of WWII (or other conflicts for that matter) is desirable and probably would be considered a "breakthrough" or "innovative" war game. I don't think I am overstating the case. Combat Mission provides the most realistic WWII tactical game on the. There are and have been strategic/operational games around for a while. Who is going to put them together in a realistic, interesting, and playable way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by benpark: ... PC only, though. Foiled again...<hr></blockquote> That isn't quite correct. CoCaT - a wonderful mapping utility that Pål Woje put together for the CMMC - is indeed a PC only beastie, but you don't need it in order to participate. There are several commanders using Macs, and one of the machines I use from time to time (when I'm away from home) won't run it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskander Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Stenographers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Ben, As Jon has stated, it is far from PC only, simply one of the tools developed for the game is PC only. We have systems in place to make sure that the MAC players are taken care of and they lose none of the playability of the game. BIG NOTE: The Website will be updated shortly! [ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Priest ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Thanks. I will read up some more, it sounds great on the initial look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 While I love the concept of a strategic layer, I also realize that it would be nearly impossible to program on a CD-ROM and be playable. You would need it to be a server side development. which would require online programmers, a pay for play system, and some way ot handle the bane of WW2Online, huge bugs and players coming and going to the battle at odd times. CMMC is the serious version of this, and may be the only way it can be achieved with current technology in a way that money can be made on it. Even the fact that COCAT is not cross platform, and the CMMC has not developed very many online tools to run on PHP or some other server scripting and database system, despite literally having hundreds of volunteers working constantly, shows the real life limitations of developing a huge project. Even the smaller slapstick soap opera metacampaign needs hundreds of hours of work to make it run. I think that the computer industry will have to move forward with more cross platform programming, server programs that do the work of a GM for you, and the like before a game like CM can do more than set out some hooks for play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Shocker Posted January 18, 2002 Author Share Posted January 18, 2002 Slapdragon, I know very little about software development so why can't a game like operational art of war which deals strategy and operations not be hooked up with CM? Two things happen with battles (I'm ignoring lots of things like attacking supply routes, engineering, AI behavior, etc.): (1) player wants to direct battle so the computer places the appropriate units on the battlefield like in CM and the player commands. It gets the force complements from the strategic part of the game. (2) player does not want to direct battle so computer does it using realistic algorithms like it does in the operational art of war. I guess I don't understand the complications as both types of games exist it is just a matter of the strategic part of the game communicating the necessary information to the tactical part of the game. In fact the game Shogun already does this! It does not have complicated road systems and lines of communication but there is a strategic map and a real time tactical battlefield which includes the effects of terrain, commander quality, morale, and so on. Finally, I am only talking about a game which could be played solo or against one opponent unlike CMMC and WWII Online. [ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Urban Shocker ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hi, Wow, some people really are thinking big scale. Strategic, different theatres and such. That is not what I have in mind. What I would like to see is definitely smaller and do-able. All I am after is a standard, operational, one hex to a mile, battalion manoeuvre units type game. Very similar to the Operational Art of War/CMMC. The game would be playable entirely at the operational scale, for those that wished to play it that way. However, “if” two players wished to they could “zoom down” to CM scale and play a given battalion/company V battalion/company battle within the operational game, at the CM scale. A piece of programming very similar to the Quick Battle generator would set up the battles but, of course, taking its QB parameters automatically from the operational game, not the players manually inputting the parameters. No doubt BTS have no plans for this sort of thing. But if they wished to, it is certainly do-able. Possibly getting someone from outside to develop the operational game, I would recommend Jim Lunsford of Decisive Action fame, but there are a lot of other good guys out there. Anyway, one day someone will combine an operational game with a CM type game using a program similar to the Quick Battle generator to take the parameters from the operational map. I sincerely hope BTS go for it. I trust them to do it right in a way I do not trust others. All the best, Kip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Shocker Posted January 18, 2002 Author Share Posted January 18, 2002 Kip, I feel the same as you. When I said different theaters I wanted the ability to choose Western Front, Eastern Front, North Africa or Pacific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Urban Shocker, Yup, I realise you and I see things in a very similar way. I am confident that someone will give it a go, one day. But, of course, I wish for it in CMIII using the talents of BTS. For me the CM part of the game would still be the most important, by far. But a quality operational layer would still add a lot. It would be another first for BTS. All the best, Kip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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