Forced MacOS X boot = no CMBB?!?

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by karch:

They don't have time to rewrite any of the game if they want to get CMBB out the door in time.

It MIGHT be only tens of hours to get it to work in classic, but it might be hundreds. And until they get the game done and start getting money back in the coffers, they just don' thave the resources to do it.

Do you want Steve to quit development on CMBB for 4 months while he learns the ins and outs of an entirely new OS or weeks to figuure out what features Classic RAVE supports and the differences between it and whatever RAVE we are using.

I can only vouch for that being the official company line. That's all any of us can do, it seems. Beyond that, I can only observe the number of times technical suggestions have been made for perhaps truncating the process, including a reference to a product that evidently converts ActiveX calls to something OSX compatible (OpenGL, presumably). I haven't seen any official response to these suggestions.

This isn't because they don't care, they don't have the time.

Caring is a relative thing, isn't it? In the thread I cited, Steve remarked that his Mac share was "in the single digits" and effectively too small to be worth the application of his limited resources. Call it what you will, but for my money, the difference between this and "not caring" is mainly theoretical.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by karch:

They don't have time to rewrite any of the game if they want to get CMBB out the door in time.

It MIGHT be only tens of hours to get it to work in classic, but it might be hundreds. And until they get the game done and start getting money back in the coffers, they just don' thave the resources to do it.

Do you want Steve to quit development on CMBB for 4 months while he learns the ins and outs of an entirely new OS or weeks to figuure out what features Classic RAVE supports and the differences between it and whatever RAVE we are using.

I can only vouch for that being the official company line. That's all any of us can do, it seems. Beyond that, I can only observe the number of times technical suggestions have been made for perhaps truncating the process, including a reference to a product that evidently converts ActiveX calls to something OSX compatible (OpenGL, presumably). I haven't seen any official response to these suggestions.

This isn't because they don't care, they don't have the time.

Caring is a relative thing, isn't it? In the thread I cited, Steve remarked that his Mac share was "in the single digits" and effectively too small to be worth the application of his limited resources. Call it what you will, but for my money, the difference between this and "not caring" is mainly theoretical.

[LightningWar]

Pardon me also if I take this opportunity to express my deep disappointment with BTS's failure to address OSX compatibility in the next generation of CM. Last I'd read, this was going to occur; now we're led to believe it will occur in generation three. "

You obviously have not read much about CMBB. It was never stated it would be OSX compatible.

BTS has addressed it. Now people need to move on and deal with it. Eventually an OSX version will hit the shelves. Just not on the current engine.

-LW

[Michael Emrys]

Ignatius, old boy, you and I both know as Mac gamers that the industry in general doesn't give a rat's ass for Mac users. In my estimation, most of their excuses aren't worth piddle-de-doo. There is in fact a large enough market among Mac users to make serving this market profitable...provided that they come up with a product worth buying.

I think the fact is, many if not most game designers would rather not be bothered to put out a quality product, since they know that the PC market is huge enough that they will break even with just a POS if that's what they want to do. And a really good game will make them rich. Not many people are going to get rich from the Mac market, though they could certainly make an adequate living.

So, as a fellow Mac gamer, I can appreciate your sensitivity to yet another betrayal and apprehension thereof. But I will tell you again that I think that it is misplaced. It's really not fair to bring all your bad feelings to the forum of one of the few gaming companies in the market that is seriously committed to serving Mac gamers, and just dumping on them.

So I say again, just take a deep breath, try to relax, and enjoy the good fortune that has come your way for as long as it lasts, however long that may be.

Michael

[karsten]

Someone mentioned that they didn't have time to make it compatible with OS X or even Classic mode in OS X.

That's just not true. OS X for developers has been around since before coding for CMBB even started. If you go back in the forums, you'll see a lot of people asking questions about CMBO compatibility with OS X.

Even if it is just one developer working on it, that's still years to make it compatible.

Don't forget that CMBO and CMBB were both developed on the Mac as well!

What about assistance from Apple? Now that Apple has their own stores all over the place and are pushing games for the Mac in a big way - I would think that Apple would be more than happy to make a game as incredible as CMBO & CMBB a featured game for OS X in their stores.

Have they even tried working with Apple about any of this? Shelf space in the USA would be a major coup! :cool:

[chrisl]

Originally posted by karsten:

Someone mentioned that they didn't have time to make it compatible with OS X or even Classic mode in OS X.

That's just not true. OS X for developers has been around since before coding for CMBB even started. If you go back in the forums, you'll see a lot of people asking questions about CMBO compatibility with OS X.

Have they even tried working with Apple about any of this? Shelf space in the USA would be a major coup! :cool:

Coding for CMBB began with CMBO. CMBB is to a large extent just an extension of the CMBO engine.

Given that they had to spend several months patching CMBO to fix some bugs (and produce an extremely stable and bug-free game) and then develop CMBB for both mac and windows simultaneously, there really hasn't been time to go back and rewrite parts of the engine to be OS X compatible. There's new code for new features, and some code on how various things (like mgs) work, and the models have more polygons, but the engine that makes it all happen and appear on your screen is basically the CMBO engine. The CMBB release would be delayed by one day for every day that it took to make compatible, since there is only one programmer.

That said, BFC has repeatedly (and for quite a long time) said that once CMBB is out, they will start from scratch and rewrite the engine to be OpenGL based (at least for the mac side), and change the implementation of a lot of things so that CMII will be able to do many things that are prohibited by the architecture of the CMBO engine.

(edit:)

I almost forgot to address the shelf space comment. BFC has chosen not to follow a retail based sales model in the US in order to be able to serve the niche market of wargamers more effectively. Given the quality of CMBO, and the expected quality of CMBB, they made the right decision. They're pursuing a careful strategy that might not make them as wealthy as Bill Gates, but will allow them to develop games that they and a sizeable population of customers want to play. Once you start putting in the whole retail supply chain, where everyone has to get a cut, the margins get too small and they probably can't make enough money to support the development process.

[ August 08, 2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: chrisl ]

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

So I say again, just take a deep breath, try to relax, and enjoy the good fortune that has come your way for as long as it lasts, however long that may be.

What a peculiar way to put it. I don't regard my spending money on a product as a privilege the seller of the product is extending to me.

In any event, I believe it is you who is getting his knickers in a twist without cause. I am merely asking the same questions and making the same observations many others have made before. We need to keep asking these questions, otherwise the people with the power to change this situation will think we don't care.

[bsoplinger]

I just did a search for 30 days in all the CM forums for user 909 and haven't seen any post about RAVE 1.6 vs 1.7

Are you sure he posted something about it recently?

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by karsten:

What about assistance from Apple? Now that Apple has their own stores all over the place and are pushing games for the Mac in a big way - I would think that Apple would be more than happy to make a game as incredible as CMBO & CMBB a featured game for OS X in their stores.

Have they even tried working with Apple about any of this? Shelf space in the USA would be a major coup! :cool:

Apple isn't the helpful company you think they are. They abandon things without telling developers e.g. BFC. Thats why we have this problem now. Look at what they are doing now, making us use Mac OSX. Well I don't want to use OS X right now. Don't tell me they are producing this "powerful" software to assist you in all your daily activities. They are a business, they want to make lots and lots of money, which is fine, but thats what they are trying to do, force a product they want to "sell"

What is the hassle of booting into 9 anyways. It takes 45 sec. on my iMac G4 800mhz. I do it all the time, except I stay in 9.2 95% of the time.

1. because Freehand 10 sucks in OSX,

2.my Wacom tablet doesn't behave properly in OSX.

Oh and now I have to pay 129$ for a new operating system which still isn't bug free aka "jaguar". Maybe this is what they should have released a year ago.

Complain to Apple about this problem, not BFC. Judging from their marketing, they NEED more consumers to purchase their products, so what they should do is help their customers more and talk with developers....way more.

I'm with Mr. Emrys, thank god BFC even makes this game for Mac. How many games exist out there that you want to play, but can't

[ August 09, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Hoopenfaust 101 ]

[karsten]

I too have searched the archives for the RAVE 1.6 vs 1.7 stuff - no luck yet.

As far as the OS 9 vs. OS X stuff; it doesn't matter if you personally like OS X or not. OS 9 is dead and OS X is the OS for the Mac for at least the next decade.

Agree or disagree with Apple's policies towards users by either buying or not buying a Mac.

For those of us that are staying with OS X and the Mac, I believe that we have a legitimate question (and it is just a question, after all) regarding CMBB.

When Apple makes it extremely difficult (aka: removes the ability) to boot into OS 9, what is Battlefront going to do to keep its customers happy regarding their upcoming game, CMBB?

[ August 09, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: karsten ]

[Schrullenhaft]

I made the comment about RAVE 1.7 & 1.6 at the beginning of THIS thread (near the bottom of the first page).

I've worked for a company that suffered financially from one of Apple's 'little changes' in the past. In the 680x0 to PowerPC transition Apple sent us some beta platforms to check our hardware against. Things looked great, until Apple shipped the product. Turns out that Apple changed the 'glue logic' on their NuBus hardware without notifying us or giving us a development sample and that screwed us and any early PowerPC adopters using our products. It caused us a lot of grief, but luckily not everyone jumped on the PowerPC within 6 months of its release. So Apple is notorious for changing things at the last minute, which may not affect everyone, but it can be disasterous for some Mac developers. Such is the current case with BTS/BFC in regards to RAVE support in OS X.

Yes, Apple told developers that they would be dropping RAVE development (but not necessarily support) in OS X and going with OpenGL as the graphical API (which was the graphics API on the NEXTStep OS that OS X is essentially based on). However I don't think that Apple flat-out said that any RAVE program wasn't going to work in OS X. Instead they probably said that some sort of emulation would be in, with the details on that being pretty sketchy until the end. If their previous efforts at emulation (a la 680x0 code on the PowerPC) were any indication of how well Apple could do this, then it looked like there would be little to worry about. Unfortunately that wasn't the case and OS X ended up supporting RAVE 1.6, but not 1.7 calls. CM needs RAVE 1.7 support to perform hardware rendering.

It might be possible to 'back code' CM to RAVE 1.6 so that it would work with hardware rendering in OS X. However this is a very unlikely course of action for BTS/BFC. It would take months (probably 6 or more) to go through CMBB's RAVE code to remove/replace RAVE 1.7 calls with 1.6 compatible calls/routines. This would also end up removing a number of graphical features of CM in order to support RAVE 1.6. In other words CMBB would probably only look as good as CMBO being software rendered. I think transparencies would disappear and probably a number of other graphical effects wouldn't be possible. It's also possible that RAVE 1.6 may not support very large textures or have other texture management limitations.

So, back-coding could possibly be done, but it would delay CMBB by six months or so and it would most likely look no better CMBO. I'm sure such a delay for such results would be met with a chorus of joy from those OS X die-hards (this is sarcasm for those who can't perceive it). More likely there would be the complaints from such users that CMBB 'looks crappy' compared to the OS 9.x version and 'how come BTS/BFC can't do OS X justice', yadda-yadda-yadda-yadda... In essense there would be complaints of an inferior product and 'why did BTS bother'.

The best solution for CM in OS X is for it to be coded into OpenGL. Now people have put forward the idea of using a 'translating' program that could take DirectX calls (for the PC) and convert them to OpenGL. However such solutions are hardly perfect and they come at a cost, which may be a license fee for every copy of CMBB sold regardless of whether it used the translation or not. Otherwise it may be some expensive, one time fee. To top it off these 'translators' may not translate a lot of the code properly without a lot of hand tweaking of the output code (which would take awhile itself). The can also put out notoriously inefficient code that could make CMBB a complete 'dog' performance-wise in OpenGL, even on the fastest Macs. I don't have data on this or how good the translator is, so these are just some of my near-worst-case guesses.

Other people on this forum mention all of the other developers who have games that work in OS X, so why can't BTS/BFC do the same. Well part of the problem is that a number of these games are multiplatform FPS's and the original code for these games is usually OpenGL anyway. So switching their Mac code-base to OpenGL usually isn't too much of a problem. Other games that might be RAVE based probably don't need too many of the 3D RAVE calls since they may be 2D isometric perspectives, etc. rather than true 3D games.

The fact of the matter is that CMBB sales to OS X die-hards will probably be fairly small (or to put it more accurately... lost sales to such people will be fairly small). I'd guess that Mac sales make up 10% or less of overall sales of CMBO (and this will most likely carry on over to CMBB sales). No disrespect is intended with that guess, it's just a simple matter of market share (regardless of fruitless arguements as to which is the better platform). People are more likely to use a PC as a gaming platform than the Mac, and that isn't just raw numbers between the platforms, but percentages within the sales of each platform separately.

In the end the best effort for BTS/BFC is to rewrite a new game engine using OpenGL. That way effort can be put to coding new features with a new API. Trying to rewrite an old engine, in this industry, is a waste of time since it would look out-dated by the time it was released (there are already criticisms of CMBB looking dated from reviewers and that isn't because it's not using OpenGL).

Most of what has been complained about here is all highly speculative (and I'm only offering my opinions on this too). If you live on the 'edge' you're bound to run into incompatibilities. This is true on the PC as it is on the Mac. Part of the difference here is that some Mac users here are insisting that there will be no OS 9.x legacy in the immediate future and that will have a huge impact on CMBB sales. This just isn't the case. Yes, the lack of complete OS X compatibility will affect sales. Probably not near as much as some people put forth here. Most likely those who have a true affinity for CM and play it on the Mac are probably already aware of it. While sales are expected to be higher for CMBB than CMBO on both platforms, I don't think that a lot of people will be that alienated by the lack of OS X support that they won't buy CMBB. Yes it is a hassle dealing with multiple partitions, especially if you're not that computer savvy (and how many Mac users want to admit to being that ?). However at this point its mostly unavoidable without delaying CMBB for six months to 2.5 years for such sales and it just realistically isn't worth it.

Mark Gibson (gibsonm) has done a good job in this thread on the Tech Support forum explaining how to run CM with OS X installed. Though many of you here probably don't need such instructions, they'll prove useful to others. While this workaround doesn't address using CM in OS X and what Apple may do to future versions of OS X and future Mac hardware, it should work for most people now.

For those of you that are worried about running CMBO and CMBB in OS X in the future, there's probably little that BTS/BFC can do about that. I don't think that there will be claims by BTS/BFC that CMBB will be OS X compatible. While there will be attempts to get it to work, I don't think that they'll result in any long term solutions that will assuage everyone's fears here. Apple, being their wiley selves, could change something with OS X.x or OS XI (etc.) and any current workarounds may stop functioning. Until CM is rewritten in OpenGL there's little that can be done without Apple adding more support for RAVE, which is almost without a doubt NOT going to happen.

BTS/BFC may have more to say about this in the future before CMBB's release. However I highly doubt that they'll be able to 'future-proof' CMBO & CMBB.

[ August 09, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[karch]

Originally posted by karsten:

When Apple makes it extremely difficult (aka: removes the ability) to boot into OS 9, what is Battlefront going to do to keep its customers happy regarding their upcoming game, CMBB?

This statement only applies to some version of hardware released in the future. I'd say there is about a 1% chance that any computer that right now can boot into an install of OS9, won't be able to in the future. meaning

A 99% chance of all current computers being able to run CMBB and CMBO forever. I'd even make it 99.9% The only customers BFC has to worry about are Apple users that buy new computers AFTER Apple stops supporting booting into OS9. Most users will not be getting new computers when they come out. It's too bad any new users won't be able to play Combat Mission "At some point in the future", but we don't even know when that is, and any current Mac owners don't have a single thing to worry about, short of rebooting into OS9 to play.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Your marathon post raises a whole series of questions, but one jumps right out at me:

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

I've worked for a company that suffered financially from one of Apple's 'little changes' in the past... Apple is notorious for changing things at the last minute, which may not affect everyone, but it can be disasterous for some Mac developers. Such is the current case with BTS/BFC in regards to RAVE support in OS X.

While this may be entirely true, I suspect Apple had their reasons (not necessarily good, insofar as developers were concerned, but not arbitrary) for deciding as they did.

So I wonder... did Microsoft take into consideration the grief they caused developers when they ditched OpenGL for the proprietary DirectX? I doubt they gave a hoot -- they did it to serve their corporate goals, not to make developers happy.

This is not to open a thread on Microsoft criticism, but to point out two things. First, Apple is hardly the only OS developer to pull stunts of this kind -- but Microsoft is "forgiven" for yanking the rug out because they control a market that's too big to ignore.

Second, as I've mentioned before, it's worth considering whether CM might not already be coded for OpenGL if Microsoft hadn't yanked back its support for OpenGL not long after Apple announced their support for it (a coincidence? I think not). At least Apple is making an effort to subscribe to open standards. Microsoft, as always, is moving in the opposite direction.

As a footnote, it might be worth knowing that Microsoft is presently attempting to exert proprietary control over OpenGL, on the basis of some patents they bought in a fire sale from SGI.

Oh, happy day. Oh, happy day.

[Schrullenhaft]

My post wasn't intended as a cynical criticism of Apple. Yes, I suspect they had their reasons for changing the glue logic on the first PowerMacs. I'm just saying that from my personal viewpoint Apple has a tendency to (unintentionally, by most accounts) screw over developers and other 3rd parties involved with the Mac when it comes to advancing the platform.

I don't think there are any Microsoft acolytes around here, so there's no love lost there and your criticisms of them are really nothing new and are chaff in this OS X discussion. Microsoft is a big IP bully that's annoyingly throwing their IP-weight around the OpenGL ARB. It all comes down to money I guess. Strangely, the Microsoft rep to the ARB was apparently a bit confused by Microsoft's intent with their IP declaration too.

Microsoft abandoning development on OpenGL is a bit of a non-starter. OpenGL 1.2 & 1.3 libraries are available in Microsoft Windows OS's from video card manufacturers (who in turn license it from SGI - though Microsoft needs to be open about their driver/DLL architecture). So I don't think Microsoft abandoning OpenGL has had that much of an impact on OpenGL development unless you only purchase Microsoft development tools and documentation (which wouldn't be too smart of a thing to do if you intend to remain a developer for long). The problem is that most video card developers will release a DirectX driver before an OpenGL one or their DirectX driver is more optimized/complete than the OpenGL offering. Though this isn't an issue with most of the major video cards right now, it is a bit of an issue for some older ones.

Apple tends to do an excellent job trying to accomodate some older software and hardware, especially considering the major changes they make to the Mac platform in terms of hardware and software. The PowerPC transition was a good example where most things (mainly 680x0 software) worked pretty good in emulation mode. However there are occasions where things don't work as well. CM is one of those programs that has to suffer in this transition to OS X.

While several of you may be upset that BTS/BFC are releasing a program that isn't fully OS X compatible after OS X has been available for over a year, that's just the way things are at the moment. If the workarounds are really that annoying for you, then don't buy the program. No one will force you to purchase and install a 'dirty RAVE game' on your OS X installation. You're welcome to play the plethora of other wargames on the Mac and you can wander around back here two to three years from now and see where BTS/BFC is at that point.

[ August 09, 2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

You're welcome to play the plethora of other wargames on the Mac and you can wander around back here two to three years from now and see where BTS/BFC is at that point.

I love that quote.

Go over to WW II online, they have a beta version you can download for Mac OSX only. You will see that the quality that BFC will put into CMBB will out-do this game. Look how long its taken them to make a mac version of this game. Who can wait that long between the windows version and mac version.

Also no one is forcing anybody to use a mac for this game. For the amount you need to shell out for a new mac, you can buy 2 PCeez.

[karsten]

So basically, what you guys are saying to people buying a Mac:

- Don't buy CMBB

or

- Buy two PC's

Hmm, there's a great solution.

Why not just tell battlefront to drop the Mac altogether?

[Hoopenfaust2]

I know my solutions are pretty cynical but you must understand the fact of markets. For every 10 computer sold, one is a mac. Now if you were a company trying to stay in business, who would you market (or develop) your product to (in order to make money) the 9 computers or the 1 computer? Its all about the Benjamins.

Apple has to see it that way as well. Why bother fixing an operating system for 1 game?

Looking at your impressive resumé (no joke) it looks like you have the skills to fix problems like this. The amount of third party software for mac os x is quite impressive and usually it works better than the large companies software e.g Microsoft drivers vs. USB overdrive. Isn't Mac OSX open source? Wouldn't you be able to program something? What do I know, I just use macs as tools to execute design problems

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

You're welcome to play the plethora of other wargames on the Mac and you can wander around back here two to three years from now and see where BTS/BFC is at that point.

I love that quote.

Go over to WW II online, they have a beta version you can download for Mac OSX only. You will see that the quality that BFC will put into CMBB will out-do this game.

http://osx.macnn.com/news.php?id=15815

Look how long its taken them to make a mac version of this game. Who can wait that long between the windows version and mac version.

Also no one is forcing anybody to use a mac for this game. For the amount you need to shell out for a new mac, you can buy 2 PCeez.</font>

[karch]

Originally posted by karsten:

So basically, what you guys are saying to people buying a Mac:

- Don't buy CMBB

or

- Buy two PC's

Hmm, there's a great solution.

Why not just tell battlefront to drop the Mac altogether?

Karsten, you are either a moron or just a jerk looking for a fight. I've said this in just about every post and either you don't seem to be able to comprehend it, or you are ingnoring it.

Any Mac user that can run CMBO right now will be able to run CMBB when it comes out. Same goes for any new Mac buyers. Until Apple comes out with a computer that will not boot into OS9, those people will be able to play CM for as long as they own their computer.

No one said all Mac users shouldn't buy CMBB. Only you and Iggy Fathead, since you two are convinced that you won't be able to play it. But you are wrong. Plain and simple.

I'm sick and tired of going around and around with this. You have no proof that Apple will even try to stop current computers from using OS9. Steve Jobs said that OS9 is dead for developers, not for users. That means that OS9 will still be able to used by users, but that developers shouldn't keep developing for it.

Now, unless you can show me ANY quote from Apple saying that current Apple computers will not be able to boot into OS8, OS9 etc, please quit saying it. You are making assumptions based on rumors. If Apple DOES do this, I will be the first person here on the forum to start an apology thread to you two and writing furious letters to Apple. But I'll bet you $100 that this does not happen.

[karsten]

Obviously, I can always make it work.

I'm not looking for a fight, either.

Just a simple response from the game mfr regarding support in Jaguar and moving forward.

Don't forget, there are a lot of mac users that are buying new macs that boot into OS X by default. Many of them will buy CMBB and wonder how to make it work. They'll call Apple first and Apple will send them here.

That being said, I also like it when products I purchase work out of the box without a bunch of pussyfooting around with control panels, extensions, reboots, etc.

[karch]

Originally posted by karsten:

Don't forget, there are a lot of mac users that are buying new macs that boot into OS X by default. Many of them will buy CMBB and wonder how to make it work. They'll call Apple first and Apple will send them here.

That being said, I also like it when products I purchase work out of the box without a bunch of pussyfooting around with control panels, extensions, reboots, etc.

Agree 100% on these counts, but these are the cards we're dealt (or will be dealt when CMBB comes out) and we just have to deal with it. It sucks, but at least any one with machines capable of booting into 9 will be able to play CM. It's up to BFC and us Mac users to help any new players to get the best possible experience when trying to play CM on a Mac, even if it isn't the simple solution we wish it was. It pains me to see the problems Apple has, but the Mac is still my computer of choice.

I'm secretly hoping the Wintel world has the same problems we're having once they move from 32 bit processors to 64 bit processors and OSs. May or may not come to pass, but the mean vindictive side of me hopes they have migration "issues" as well. But that's a topic for another thread.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

No one said all Mac users shouldn't buy CMBB. Only you and Iggy Fathead, since you two are convinced that you won't be able to play it. But you are wrong. Plain and simple.

I'm quite capable of representing my own opinion, thank you very much -- so please, don't attempt to misrepresent it for me. I am not "convinced" any such thing. I won't make the effort to paraphrase everything I've said previously, but it comes down a lament that CMBB will not be compatible with OSX or the Classic Environment of OSX. This would be roughly equivalent of CM running in Windows98 and not in XP.

I'm sick and tired of going around and around with this.

Nobody is forcing you to participate in this discussion. If it makes you that "sick and tired," go elsewhere. Seriously.

You have no proof that Apple will even try to stop current computers from using OS9. Steve Jobs said that OS9 is dead for developers, not for users. That means that OS9 will still be able to used by users, but that developers shouldn't keep developing for it.

It's clear to anyone who follows Apple's development of OSX that they will make OS9, as it installed as the Classic Environment in some future version of OSX, unbootable. This is bankable.

Now, unless you can show me ANY quote from Apple saying that current Apple computers will not be able to boot into OS8, OS9 etc, please quit saying it. You are making assumptions based on rumors. If Apple DOES do this, I will be the first person here on the forum to start an apology thread to you two and writing furious letters to Apple. But I'll bet you $100 that this does not happen.

You might want to start apologizing now. This rumor, if that's what it is, originated about a week ago, in a fairly lengthy eWeek article. Apple has not officially denied it, though apparently Steve Jobs has, unofficially.

Don't expect Apple to signal their intentions. As previous posters have noted citing the example of their abrupt abandonment of RAVE, Apple does not provide advance warning, but much of what is rumored turns out to be true (and the eWeek article appears to be more credible than the typical rumor).

For indicators of the general direction Apple is taking, look no further than what Steve Jobs has said, repeatedly. Look no further than him declaring OS9 dead for developers. From everything I know about Apple, I have to believe that "dead" means "dead." You may choose if you prefer to read these tea-leaves in some other way, but I know better.

[karsten]

Hear hear!

Like I said in a previous post, Steve does what he wants to - and he gets his way. I've been personally burned by Steve in the past - and that was only based on rumor.

This time, he's announced it in no uncertain terms: OS 9 is dead.

So how do we find out if Apple and Battlefront are working together?

Or what about an actual official word on the exact compatibility of CMBB?

[karch]

Too bad you too keep dodging my points and twisting them.

OS9 as it works as Classic mode is irrelevant to all the posts I've made.

Both of you have said over and over again that Apple would stop computers from booting into OS9. That is nearly impossible, and that is what is needed to stop all current Macs from playing Combat mission. This will not happen.

Your windows comparison would be better by using Windows 98 and NT4. Games worked with DirectX in98, but not in NT. Never did, never will.

ALL my points are completely ignoring Classic mode (except you can play it with software rendering) so any concerns of your about booting your Classic Mode OS9 are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, and most other gamers as well.

Aswer me this.

1) Do you think your computer will ever NOT be able to boot into a copy of OS9 and play CMBO or CMBB?

I say ther is no way to stop this. This is the key point I'm arguing. Steve Jobs also said at the developer's conference that OS9 was dead only for developers, not users. Which means, as users, we will be able to keep using OS9.

[karch]

Why don't you two explain to me how Apple is going to stop me from installing OSX 10.2 and keeping a clean copy of OS9 for me to boot into to play Combat Mission on my iBook or any other current Mac.

[ August 11, 2002, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: karch ]