Assault Waypoints?

[Christian Knudsen]

I am having a slight problem, and do not know if this is a design feature, or possible bug, or what...

I cannot assault as a secondary waypoint. For example, in an attack on a lone building 100 meters from my squad, I wish to have my squad advance for about the first 75 meters, and then assault over the last 25 meters. Even with a rested, OK, veteran squad under +2 command I cannot do this. This means that I have to either advance the entire 100m, which is not ideal, or assault the entire 100m, which again is not ideal, or using pauses, time it so that the turn ends with the squad at about the right point, and then change to assault orders, which neccessitates a pause, usually out in the open...

Any advice/guidance?

Thanks in advance.

[WWB]

That is because you specifically cannot assault as a secondary waypoint. Such an order requires regrouping and such so must be started from a dead stop.

WWB

[Christian Knudsen]

Ok, not wanting to sound like a complainer, but why is this? (Now I step, with a good deal of trepidation, into actual design criticism) The manual states that the assault is similar to advance, and I assume that really the only difference is an increase in speed/aggression and a lot more grenades, as well as an increase in covering fire from the rest of the squad as each enemy trench or firing position is cleared. My arguement is that the assault is a natural extension of the advance (on an enemy position). It only makes sense that when coming right up to the enemy position one would definitely step it up a bit, and get a few more grenades downrange.

I think that my perception here is coloured a bit by Canadian Infantry doctrine, which at the section level calls for (once the firefight is won) an approach to the enemy position using fire and movement (advance, in CMBB terms), followed by the actual assault on the position. The point is that the transition between the two phases should be seamless, since the section commander should have at the beginning of the attack detailed which fire team(s) will actually take the enemy positions. Of course casualties in the attack become a factor, but again a well trained and/or experienced section should be able to cope with this. I would argue that any squad of regular or higher skill should not need to stop and reorganize/receive orders in order to use assault as a secondary waypoint.

Any thoughts?

BTW, wwb, I find to my embarrasment that the answer to my question is actually on pg 81 of the manual. Again I must improve my research, it seems.

[ November 04, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Christian Knudsen ]

[MasterGoodale]

I have to agree with Knud on this one. Seems it would be natural and they would flow together almost seamlessly.

[Schoerner]

I have to disagree. I can't imagine to plan an assault this way. Nobody knows if the men with special orders will even be alive when the final assault starts. Therefore it seems quite logical to me, to reorganize, prepare and afterwards to assault.

Maybe this is a (new?) schoolbook-doctrine, but i wouldn't risk my men by an over long distances preplanned assault without being convinced, what weapons and men will be really available for the final assault and i can't believe this is/was the usual way (doctrine) in other armys.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by MasterGoodale:

I have to agree with Knud on this one. Seems it would be natural and they would flow together almost seamlessly.

My guess is they DO, and I think real issue here is captial letters.

Assault vrs. assault.

IIRC, in CMBB (and BO) units getting close to enemy units "step it up". So when using Advance troops drawing near to the enemy automatically make an assault.

Assault, OTOH, represents something beyond the fire and maneuver involved with an Advance. It's a special effort of some sort. So the troops need to stop for a moment (a few seconds, it the player has very good timing and the troops are of high quality) and look over the terrain with especial care, double check weapons or plans, get "psyched", be threatened by the Commissar, or whatever.

I havn't found the waypoint restriction very limiting, either. Well, at all limiting, really. For situations that are best described as assaults - ie, moevement either through heavy fire or against strong resistance - I like to use a simultaneous Assault of multiple well rested squads from out of cover. Not that I've had the game very long, but so far that's always required a turn or two of rest for a leat 1 squad anyway.

[Christian Knudsen]

Good point, Tarqulene - We may be engaged in a discussion of semantics based upon personal perception of just what advance and/or assault mean.

Schorner, the reason I brought up the point in the first place was that I felt the way assault is handled can cause a real loss of momentum in the attack. Momentum is everything - for a good example of this, see the Band of Brothers episode where E Coy attacks Foy and the Coy cmdr freezes up. The Battalion commander in this situation realised immediately that if momentum was not restored the attack would fail.

The same applies in CMBB. A stop to pause and reorganise just short of the objective, especially in the open, would be fatal. And as for casualties, yes this is a problem, but other soldiers are expected to show initiative and achieve the objective despite what has happened to others in the section. If this means that a different fire team ends up taking out the enemy position, so be it. Also keep in mind that I am talking about section level attacks here. Anything bigger would be coordinated in advance by the Platoon cmdr and/or 2ic.

And as for orders, these are usually very short. In the Canadian Army we use the acronym GETM (Group, enemy, task, movement). So a typical section attack order consists of something like:

"One section will do a frontal attack on the two enemy trenches.

Charlie Team will assault the first trench, Delta team will assault the second trench.

One section will advance using section movement-

SECTION SECTION SECTION"

Takes about five seconds, and if everyone knows what they are doing, there is no confusion whatsoever.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Christian Knudsen:

Takes about five seconds, and if everyone knows what they are doing, there is no confusion whatsoever.

Ah. You've done this against a live enemy then, determined and well-armed, and shooting back?

Michael

[Schoerner]

Chris, now i understand what you mean. But i think this kind of assault is already automatically implemented in CMBB.

An advance commando let's us "assault" the enemy this way already without any delay.

The assault command in CMBB represents IMO the different kind of assault under strong leadership, well prepared and morale strengthened attack against heavy enemy fire and good positions.

I vote for leaving it, as it is.

[Christian Knudsen]

Ouch.

Ok Michael, of course you are right, and I must admit I am guilty of a bit of oversimplification there.

Schoerner, I think you may have the right of it. I guess the need for orders has more to do with the morale issue. All of the orders that are treated this way (Assault, Human Wave, and Withdraw) cover situations that definitely need extra briefing and motivation. I know that if someone told me to advance in a group at a walking pace toward an enemy MG I would probably require a whole lot of convincing before I crossed the LOD...