Inclement Weather Tactics

[JAT]

Am having some problems learning or using the "movement" commands to engage the enemy. Yes, advance works great under warm/cool, dry conditions. I'm talking about wet/muddy/hot/cold/extreme cold/snow conditions. Advance simply does not work...10m and they are Tired, hit the ground and crawl to Exhaustion in another 10m. Move command and NO ONE fires a shot. Did a small test with 2 platoons each in hotseat mode. Lined them up and gave all parties MOVE commands. 1st turn, they all walked their little nature walk towards each other. On to turn 2. Every squad/HQ, had LOS and had a red target line to somebody else (CM did this, not me). Hit Go. Well, this is nice, let's just continue our nature walk, even tho I see the enemy, they aren't shooting at me, so why should I shoot at them. Onwards, BTW, isn't that a red-crested robin over there? (or whatever) Anyone got a smoke? A light? Ok, let's go shake hands with our enemy. When getting to within 10m of the enemy, they then decide it's time to throw a hand grenade. Those two squads hit the ground. Still no shooting. Turn #3...The two squads who exchanged grenades then decide to shoot, most of the squads on both sides hit the ground, stop their move orders and then begin to fire. Germans slaughtered the Russians. Both were Rifle Squads, regular, fit, 100% ammo, dry, windy.

Ok, this is how MOVE works. That's ok, I'm not asking for BFC to change anything. I just want to know how in the hell do you overtake a position in inclement weather? Advance is OUT. Assault is OUT. Move is OUT. Run is OUT. Sneak is OUT. Crawl is OUT. Move to Contact is OUT. Uhm??? Not much left to use is there. I guess I could rotate a lot. (No, don't say it...it's not polite).

Another way to put this is once LOS is made and engagement is in process (say within 50-100m). What is the best command (tactics) to continue the troops movement? Because at this point, Assault/Advance/Run/Move/MTC/Sneak/Crawl just don't cut it. Use of any of these commands = zero decrease in distance. So, do you just let them sit there and fight it out? I guess this is where a 3:1 advantage tactic is called for. However; there just won't be that many instances of 3:1 after about 2 engagements, especially in an ME.

POSSIBLE SPOILER:

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Green Hell is a perfect example. I am playing my 3rd game of this vs human. 10 turns and very little movement at all. The only time movement can occur is when an enemy troop dies, then there is a possiblity of movement, but here again, can't use Move as they WON'T shoot. MTC: most likely not as there will be little icons hiding all over the place. Run/Advance/Assault/Sneak/Crawl: I really like sending exhausted troops into a skirmish. Ok, 10 turns later and 12.5m further. Boy! This is exciting!!! I can't wait til we get to turn 110. Oh yeah, I forgot, it's only a 30 turn scenario.

The only thing I can see is that you do a lot of suppression and Move some of your guys towards the objective. But, sending your guys in on a nature walk to engage the enemy is not what I call smart. I think I would most certainly have been a NKVD casualty if I was told to enjoy walking towards the enemy with my fingers OFF the trigger.

I have read most every post on the forum and the answers given seem to be addressing "normal" weather conditions. I'm asking about tactics to use in "inclement" weather. What have you found to do that approaches working?

Thanks

[PiggDogg]

JAT,

Unless something has slipped by me in BB, in bad weather (mud, rain, snow, etc), one is stuck with the move command in order to attack. One just better make sure that every enemy within the county is surpressed. :eek:

I suspect that this pretty well shows the real life situation where attacks in bad weather and on bad ground were next to impossible.

Of course, we know that Russia has weather to envy. They have warm balmy summers and mild dry winters. Makes one think of Hawaii or Tahiti.

Cheers, Richard

[ November 13, 2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[JAT]

Yes, that is why I asked,

What have you found to do that approaches working?

[Cameroon]

Well, this won't make me popular... but I use Advance. *shrug* I've not had problems using it in short spurts with rest inbetween with the exception of REALLY bad weather. The "Winter Wonderland" scenario on the CD is an example where Move is the ONLY usable option. Move in short (SHORT) amounts with as much overwatch as you can manage.

Yeah, attacks in really bad weather are tough

[Goose]

I haven't tried this myself, but you could try using Move with VERY small sections of Advance interspersed.

For example: 10m move, 1m advance, 10m move, 1m advance, ... (Rinse, Repeat, Lather, or whatever )

[Chad Harrison]

In bad weather, the real key is suppressing fire. You generally need atleast twice the troops as they have to assault across open ground. Half for suppressing fire, and the other half just have to 'walk' across the majority of the territory. The last distance can be covered with 'advance'.

Your best bet is just to have some supporting armor or smoke. Seems to work best with that support. Smoke also blocks suppressing fire though, so just hope there is plenty of it for that last leg of the trip.

Chad

[Redwolf]

So here is my soapbox on bad weather:

the key here is ranges. The firing range of weapons, the range that the attacker can cross in a given timeframe, and the range that the defender's reserves movement and/or fallback tactics has.

I will assume that bad weather means both restricted visibility and difficult movement both for vehicles and men.

The defender's situation is the key for both the attacker and the defender, so let us ignore attack fine points for now and just assume that a concentrated attack hits the defensive line somewhere.

So what are the defender's problems:

1) No or less long-range AT fire.

2) He can only easily fall back to a second line if he shortens the first engagement considerably. Only a light volley is possible and then get the hell out.

3) Reserves will move slower. Vehicles have a high chance of bogging.

3a) by extension of 3, the attacker will either be able to guess where the defender's reserves are standing and where they will move. Or the defender has to use truly inferiour paths, making point 3 very bad

4) less overlap of fire of defending units in line.

5) defender will have a hard time to get a clear picture where the attacker is actually committing.

Point 4), no overlap of fire is the first key here. If the attacker concentrates on one point of the defensive line, then he will surely overwhelm the defenders there unless defensive reserves are used. So, the defender has to build bigger reserves in bad weather. In CM defenders can often live without reserves because of the small spaces and long range of many weapons.

Point 5) has the obvious consequence that a fake attack at some point has a big chance of actually getting the reserves committed. If you strike elsewhere when the reserves are committed, you practically won.

So, overall I think it should go like this:

1) Recon with reasonably powerful forces right behind the initial scouts. This will bind first-line defensive troops. They will be able to either bind the first-lien defensive troops, if not overwhelm them, or they have a good chance to shoot them up when they try to fall back to a second line.

2) Seek to organize the whole force so that you have two strike points where you as the attacker can easily choose following units to go either way, but the defender cannot. Try to fake an attack at one point and if the defender committs the reserves there then really attack at a different point. If the attacker does not reinforce the inital attack, destroy his now abanonded forces there.

3) Try to seperate the defensive area. Often you can move a tanw here it is not threatens itself, but his weapon range cuts the defensive zone into two. This will prevent him from using his reserves effectivly.

4) Untargetted mortar fire into the defensive zone can make movement of infantry reserves very hard. This is probably overemphazied in CMBB and will hopelyy be fixed in 1.01

Or in one sentense: since visibilty is low and movement difficult, try to seperate his forces into pockets and eliminate (or ignore) them one by one.

Disclaimer: just failed royally doing so against Gravesregistration in a blizzard.

[Tripps]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

JAT,

I suspect that this pretty well shows the real life situation where attacks in bad weather and on bad ground was next to impossible.

Cheers, Richard

Which reminds me, after reading about the German defense of Cholm in the winter of 41/42, there is a perfectly illistrated point where:

(Sorry I cannot quote directly, can get the reference if ppl want)

The Soviets would start the attack with the typical 'Uurah', and then shut up as they waded 200m through chest high snow.

The Germans, knowing the Russians were getting totally stuffed, would just wait til they were halfway and then open up, and literally cut them down.

The only times the Russians actually got into Cholm was when tanks and lots of suppressing fire was used.

It goes on about the counter attacks to reach a hill that a link up force from the main German line could reach them for supply, and how it was simply impossible to move very fast at all, how they would be exhausted after meters of wading through snow, and how they could get picked off if there was no suppressive fire.

FWIW

[Tripps]

Good post Redwolf.

I would go so far as to say that the main points of your post could be applied to any attacking scenario, but the advantages are more profound in bad weather where the defender has limited maneuverabilty to react, and visibilty to see where the main thrust is coming from.

Shh, I actually use this method, but dont tell anybody

BUT! what do do in the situation where, say you have the battlefield thus:

---------------MLR----------------

Flank A Middle B Flank C

With flags randomly behind it.

You recon the the middle 'B' with a strong force, as per your post, with your main thrust organised on flank A.

And you encounter very strong defense from B, because the defender has refused flank A.

I recently did this while defending, and its totally stumped the attacker, because he has had to totally recon that flank, to avoid being picked off from behind (he didnt do this properly, and my 75 howitzer is pinging away from behind now), and its taken a long time to reach the middle from that flank, where he meets strong resistance.

(he also missed a platoon of men, which have come in behind and re-captured a flag )

Just interested how you would compensate for this tactic

Cheers

[Frunze]

Interesting points, Redwolf. I'll have to try it.

About choosing movement orders: I just said this in a "human wave" thread, but human wave is sometimes useful in snow, if advance is too tiring. Morale is improved some over move and run.

Tripp, I'd send part of my force on that flank over towards the center, and part of it would continue back to the map edge.