CMBB: aviation

[Renaud]

I'm pretty excited about the expanded aircraft support. I thought it would be interesting to discuss the specific planes that might be included. Here's my guesses (with notes):

1) Ju-87: Later models (post 41) dispensed with dive-bombing and had increased armor and bombload (3000kg or so). Some of the noted tank hunter models were equipped with 2 37mm cannons each with a clip of 6 rounds.

2) Ju-88: VERY fast bomber. They were still doing nuisance raids on London through 1944, because fighters had a hard time catching the fastest model. Here's the fun part: carries 28 50kg bombs internally plus up to 4 500kg bombs externally. They were used for night fighting and tank hunting too, mounting masses of 20mm cannon up front (6-20mm).

3) Fw-190: later east front models had powerful engines and large bombloads, 3000kg+. They could also carry, with some risk, the largest german bomb (3500kg!)

4) Me-109: forced to carry a few bombs later in the war. They could leave this out. Probably the same as Fw-190 for game purposes, with lighter bombload(?).

5) Hs-123: This was a robust pre-war biplane design used in the early war. It was used as a CAS specialist. Saw action in france, poland, not sure if it was employed in Russia. Have a picture of one loaded with a pair of huge cluster bombs.

It's worth noting that as of fall 1944 all remaining German production capacity was switched to fighters.

Anyone care to respond with the likely Russian aircraft?

Ren

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by Andreas:

In general, from 1943 onwards the Luftwaffe ceased to play a major role in the east. Air superiority was with the Red Army, except in isolated circumstances. This was connected to the haemorraging of experienced (and new) fighter pilots in the air battles over the Reich.

That's something I've wondered about. As far as I know, Luftwaffe had quite enough fighters, but ran out of competent pilots to man them. So, in effect, 8th AF won a war of attrition. I've read some comments that Luftwaffe had bad priorities re: trying to keep B-17s out of the Reich, instead of going for the maximum number of bombers/fighters not going back home. However, how well did they do, really? If you compare USAAF vs Luftwaffe kill rates, which one made better use of men and machines?

[Guest Mike]

types of A/C - there weer ground attack variants of eth Fw-190 - the F and G marks I think - heavily armoured and armed with rockets adn up to 30m cannon.

Also the Hs-129 will maybe be there?? the 30mm cannon was supposedly quite deadly against top armour, but it also came out with 37mm, 50mm and 75mm cannon armed variants.

On the Russian side I know I saw a couple of types of Il-2 (the ingle seater and the -m3 I think) - there were several sub-types carrying armament - it started with 20mm cannon, replaced those with 23mm that were considerably more powerful and are essentialy still in use today, then finally some had 37mm cannon, plus rockets, bombs and cluster munitions!!

Ouch!

Also the Pe-2, some fighter bomber types (I don't recall which but there were Yak-9 sub types with internal bombloads and 45mm cannon (2 different types, not in the same a/c) and I'd expect to see the Aircobra, KingCobra and Hurricane).

[bulletproofest]

I think it would be cool to have some 'flying tanks' on the Russain side but I see no reason the aircobra should be in the game, it was an American/British fighter and therefore couldn't be used on the Eastern front!

P.S. will there be any of those jet powered Messershmitts?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by bulletproofest:

I think it would be cool to have some 'flying tanks' on the Russain side but I see no reason the aircobra should be in the game, it was an American/British fighter and therefore couldn't be used on the Eastern front!

Except that it was so 'popular' with the Americans, they sent 5,707 Airacobras to the USSR under lend-lease.

[Guest Mike]

Most of the P-39 Aircobra and ALL of eteh P-63 Kingcobra production was sent led lease to Russia!!

Do ya think that might be reason enough??

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by bulletproofest:

...it [the P-39 Aircobra] was an American/British fighter...

I do hope that by calling it "an American/British fighter" you are not trying to imply that the British were involved in its production? In fact, they didn't even like to fly it, and gave back most of the ones the US had Lend-Leased to them.

P.S. will there be any of those jet powered Messershmitts?

I've never heard of them flying on the eastern front.

Michael

[Andreas]

Haha Mike, got in just before you

Some information on use of Soviet air forces:

Iasy-Kischinjow Operation 1944 (some more information on it in this thread, including a quote from the interrogation of a German officer on the effectiveness of air support.)

Operation started August 20th. On the day, 19 enemy planes were counted over the frontline of 3rd Ukrainian Front. The Front used 1,674 planes to support the initial attack. The barrage mentioned is always combined artillery and air.

On the 21st, 3rd Ukrainian Front flew 1,039 sorties, 50%+ of these battlefield CAS. Damage assessment (likely inflated) 51 enemy planes downed, 250 motor vehicles, 130 other vehicles destroyed, five artillery and AA batteries suppressed.

On the 23rd, the outer encirclement ring of German 6th Army was complete, but the inner ring was incomplete. The airforce was used to attack moving columns of the retreating army, and to destroy bridges just when columns came near them, to ensure that the resulting traffic would make a nicely bunched-up target.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />P.S. will there be any of those jet powered Messershmitts?

I've never heard of them flying on the eastern front.

Michael</font>

[John Kettler]

And the Russians loved them, especially that big 37mm cannon firing through the propeller boss. I don't have the details handy, but I believe there were several Russian aces in King Cobras and Airacobras.

Renaud is right about the Ju-87 G's (2 x BK 37) ammo load. The clips held seven rounds each, but the Germans found that they wouldn't feed properly this way and dropped a round from each clip. I well remember when James Steuard, then publisher of AFV-G2 magazine and former tanker and ordnance sergeant, lectured on the subject of German antitank aircraft to my I.P.M.S. chapter. He read and spoke German and had the original Luftwaffe tech manuals on the guns and their projectiles. The special 37mm ammo (PzGr 40, I believe) was marked "only for use against tanks." I also distinctly recall seeing the photos and writeups on the BK 50 and BK 75 in David Chinn's formerly classified THE MACHINE GUN series.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ July 25, 2002, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Grisha]

For VVS aircraft one might have at their disposal in CMBB:</font>

1. Early fighters(Yak-1, Yak-7, I-16, I-153, LaGG-3) who in 1941-42 did a lot of the ground pounding while Il-2 production went into full gear. Most could carry small bomb loads and/or four-six 82mm rockets.</font>
2. Il-2. This aircraft came initially as a single-seater, then was field modified to house a rear gunner, then the factories followed suit with production two-seaters. Munitions were wide and varied from all types of HE bombs(up to 250kg bombs), 82 & 132mm rockets(both HE and HEAT), cluster bomblets, special anti-tank HEAT bomblets (90 to almost 200 of these things in a single loadout), combustible vapor munitions, and even a torpedo. Primary armament of most Il-2s were the two VYa-23(23mm) cannons in the wings. The VYa could penetrate up to 25mm at longe range, firing 500 rds/min. at a muzzle velocity(m.v.) of 905m/sec. By the time of Kursk some Il-2 were equipped with two NS-37(37mm) cannons. These cannons could penetrate 40mm of armour at angles to 45 degrees. NS-37 rate of fire was 250rds/min at a m.v. of 900m/sec.</font>
3. Pe-2. Fast twin-engined tactical bomber capable of dive-bombing(had dive-brakes). Could carry up to 1,600kg of bombs. Saw service throughout the entire war.</font>
4. Tu-2. Similar to the Pe-2, though not a dive-bomber. Normal bomb load was 1-3 tonnes, but could be overloaded to 4 tonnes. Saw service from late 1942.</font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Renaud:

5) Hs-123: This was a robust pre-war biplane design used in the early war. It was used as a CAS specialist. Saw action in france, poland, not sure if it was employed in Russia. Have a picture of one loaded with a pair of huge cluster bombs.

I have a picture showing two of them coming in to land in AG North Wolchow sector in 1942 (probably). The caption says 'close-range reconnaissance planes', but the author (Werner Haupt) is sometimes a bit shaky on his technical data, so it is perfectly possible they were still used as CAS planes then.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />P.S. will there be any of those jet powered Messershmitts?

I've never heard of them flying on the eastern front.

Michael</font>