Thin Red Line Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 In the last turn of one of my PBEM, a M18 rushed right in the middle of a full platoon of riffles in ambush in scaterred trees. Unfortunately, the 3 fausts missed, leaving all my men less than 10m from the steel beast, butonned, but well alive. Not shreck available in the neighborhood. Do I have a chance to knock it down in close combat with my infantry (regulars) or should i withdraw ? Does the fact that the Hellcat is open topped is in my favor (after all, a hand grenade in the turret should at least shock the crew) and how is that modelled in the game ? I'm instinctively more confident because it's open topped but maybe i'm wrong. What orders should i give : run at the tank (like to embark) or just target it ? Thanks for the tips. [ March 22, 2002, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Thin Red Line ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 I personally would close in closer on the TD. Your guys are already there so just tighten around the TD. Your men will start chucking grenades when they get closer and good chance you will toast the TD. Again that is just me, I hate running away from things and have my guys get lead poisoning in the back. Underdog [ March 22, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Underdog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJoe Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 I would get closer so that they start throwing grenades. A grenade in an open turret in CM should work the same as in real life. It should kill most of the crew and set of the ammo in the tank. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 If he's buttoned up he may not have even seen your guys yet. You are well within grenade range, and to move might give him the opportunity to see you. I have come into the edge of woods 10 to 15 meters away from a buttoned M7 firing else were and my guys threw maybe 10 grenades or more until they knocked it out. He never knew what got him. I could hardly believe that when I was told. Of course if one of your guys are sitting right in front of him he might get spotted. lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 One factor you should consider is that unless your opponent was doing a "flag rush," that M18 Hellcat will be getting the f%ck outta Dodge in one big hurry. Figure 13 seconds for a Regular, 8 for a Veteran for the command delay. Your troops of course will have their own command delay. Note that while moving, troops have a substantial decrease in firepower. So they may not be as effective while moving- and also the Hellcat may be going 20 mph by then! Perhaps you shouldn't move them? If you know how, you could use the Scenario-editor and to a test to see what the best course of action might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 I could be wrong about this, as this is a difficult thing to test for sure, but in my experience if your squads are already within 10m of the Hellcat, there's no need to move them any closer - remember that the 3-man squad graphic represents the approximate location of 8-12 men. If that graphic is less than 10m from the AFV, some of those men might literally be on top of it. There was a thread about this some time ago. While there was no definitive conclusion, the general consensus from the more experienced members of the forum was that once a squad was within 20m of an AFV, moving them any closer did not improve the chances of a close assault KO. I've never figured out the absolute maximum range for hand grenades, but it's well over 10m - I think around 40m. More experienced players than I have also previously stated on the forum that you have a substantially higher chance of knocking out an open-topped AFV than a fully armoured one. How much more I don't know. I personally have knocked out an open-topped AFV with grenades only once (it was a German HT), but then again it's not something I try to do very often. In that attack, the HT 'brewed up'. I've read of similar results from successful grenade attacks on the forum, so I'd guess that a grenade that makes it into the vehicle interior is very likely to completely KO the vehicle. This makes sense if you think about a grenade going off in a very enclosed space with lots of ammunition and fuel around. :eek: It's also worth noting that the M18 is a very weak anti-infantry platform. It's got one .50cal MG, and that's on an AA mount, so it can't be fired once it's buttoned. That leaves the Hellcat with one 76mm (which is not quite as good as the 75mm on a Sherman against infantry) to shoot at 3 different squads. Therefore, assuming he has no other assets in the area and your squads are well dispersed (an important thing to check!) he can only supress one squad at a time, leaving the other two free to chuck grenades with no annoying HE distractions. If your platoon has already fired off 3 fausts at the AFV, chances are they're already spotted. That means that the M18 is likely to get a couple of shells off at them whether or not you withdraw (unless it gets KOed first!!). If they're not spotted yet, which is possible, you might be able to just hide them and save their skins that way. The problem with this is that there's no way of knowing for sure if your squads haven't been spotted yet. If they've been fired upon or targetted, they've definitely been spotted. Otherwise, the best you can do is an educated guess. If you hide them when they're already spotted, the only effect will be that they'll stop firing (and throwing grenades) until the M18 gets it's turret rotated around and fires upon them. This is obviously of no benefit to you. As Silvio noted, that M18 is likely to bug out very quickly next turn, whether your opponent orders it to or not - in my experience, AFVs usually plot their *own* orders if they come under a strong close infantry assault. If you have mobile anti-armour assets, you might want to try to anticipate the direction that the M18 will try to withdraw and cover it with a gun or a shreck. The M18 will probably still be focusing it's attention on the assaulting platoon, so if you can bring another asset to bear it will probably get a couple of free shots. In the end, whether you should withdraw or assault is going to depend on your overall battle plan and situation - how badly you need that platoon for other missions, how dangerous that M18 is to your overall battle plan, etc. Most of the time I'd probably go for it and assault the Hellcat, though - it's worth a fair number of points, and you're not likely to take too many causalties from it's one gun if you fail. Plus, that Hellcat has to be important to his battle plan if he's pushing it forward so aggressively. Even delaying it by forcing it to take a different route might throw him off and give you an opening. And yes, target the AFV. The squads will probably do it anyway, but targetting it will ensure that they start chucking grenades at it right away. As noted above, I wouldn't move them any closer if they're already within 10m as this will just make them spend some of their effort moving instead of aiming and throwing grenades. Let us know how it turns out. Cheers, YD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 I think the area of a squad is 15 meters. Distances below 15 meters mean nothing in CMBO. Still, if you move them 7 meters they will be move vulnerable and do less useful things during this move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 One other thought: If you do KO the 'cat with three squads around it, you're pretty much guaranteed killing or capturing the crew. That's a nice little icing on the cake as far as points are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Red Line Posted March 23, 2002 Author Share Posted March 23, 2002 Originally posted by YankeeDog: As Silvio noted, that M18 is likely to bug out very quickly next turn, whether your opponent orders it to or not - in my experience, AFVs usually plot their *own* orders if they come under a strong close infantry assault. If you have mobile anti-armour assets, you might want to try to anticipate the direction that the M18 will try to withdraw and cover it with a gun or a shreck. The M18 will probably still be focusing it's attention on the assaulting platoon, so if you can bring another asset to bear it will probably get a couple of free shots. Let us know how it turns out. You were 100% right on this, the tank ran away from the hornet's nest at full speed, apparently undamaged. I have a Panther who has just finished its fifth Hellcatt of the day at the other end of the map but with the good LOS it shouldn't take me more than 2 turns to offer her this sixth prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Cook Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 I lost an open top Priest when a German CO (all by his "shaken" lonesome) lobbed a hand grenade into it point blank in some nasty house-to-house. Ouch. I think he was "crack" status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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