The Green Rascal Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 SPOILER AHEAD . . . . . . . . . . . . Playing the Line Of Defense scenario, I was suprised to receive a full volley of Panzershreck rockets from one of the houses at the front of the village, five rockets in one turn against a Sherman. In previous CM incarnations firing anti-tank rockets from inside a house would quickly lead to suppression, casualties and fires. So I tried as the Germans in that scenario, firing area fire volleys from 'shrecks at the ground, and all teams fire all their rockets consecutively and no ill effects happen. Just thought I'd note this in case it has made it into the full release, or are BFC aware already? [ November 23, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: The Green Rascal ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I'd quite like to know what the deal is with this too. I think the supression effect from backblast in a confined space from panzerschreks and bazookas was good. Has it changed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Perhaps it's just a very high quality schreck. They grit their teeth and take the pain of the backblast, revelling in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Rascal Posted November 21, 2003 Author Share Posted November 21, 2003 Hehe. No it's not a special team in asbestos suits, and on my machine at least, it is 100% repeatable with all 'shreck teams in the demo scanario. If you want to check they will quite happily launch all their rockets by doing area fire, and no supression, casualties, or fires will happen. I agree that the backblast in confined spaces feature was excellent, and can't see why BFC would leave it out of CMAK. It would certainly make AT teams far more deadly on some maps. Hopefully an official will be along soon to confirm if it is already known, deliberate, or has slipped through testing... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 SPOILERS + + + + + + + + + + + I had a schreck in a stone house and targetted a Stuart - he fired no problem, then took out a Sherman (and at respectable distances too). No suppression; of course, it IS a Veteran crew. I dunno; I've never fired a bazooka, but I've been on the Carl Gustav range; firing from a big enough room in your average house - would there really be a huge problem with backblast, other than blowing any abandoned books, letters, magazines that may be laying around (I've got a great picture of the Carl G firing, and the Number 2's gloves flying off about 20 or 30 metres in midair ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 would there really be a huge problem with backblast, other than blowing any abandoned books, letters, magazines that may be laying aroundI've got no real life experience of it but I do know that in CMBO there was definitely supression effects from backblast in small buildings because in the first scenario I ever played it happened to me. I think it's mentioned in the manual too (Also mentioned that the PIAT didn't suffer from this if I remember rightly) and I thought it was a very good attantion to detail. I don't know if it's done in CMBB because I can't remember ever seeing it (must test when I get a chance) but it's definitely not modelled in the CMAK demo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDog Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I haven't experienced this in CMAK yet, but I DO have real life 'zook experience (Marine Corps SMAW). You can't fire them inside buildings at all because the back blast will kill you. The concussion is almost disabling out in the open - you have no frame of reference until you experience it yourself. Its' kind of like someone pounding your whole body with 20# sledge-hammers. The PIAT could be fired inside buildings because it was self contained - like a rifle round, so no back blast. The newer US Javelin and Predator systems also have no back blast, so they can be fired from within an enclosed space. [ November 21, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by DevilDog: I haven't experienced this in CMAK yet, but I DO have real life 'zook experience (Marine Corps SMAW). You can't fire them inside buildings at all because the back blast will kill you. The concussion is almost disabling out in the open - you have no frame of reference until you experience it yourself. Its' kind of like someonw pounding your whole body with 20# sledge-hammers. The PIAT could be fired inside buildings because it was self contained - like a rifle round, so no back blast. The newer US Javeline and Predator systems also have no back blast, so they can be fired from within an enclosed space. I humbly stand corrected. And very impressive on the PIAT knowledge; I had always assumed it was springloaded only, but as you point out there was indeed a cartridge fitted to the tail of the bomb (balustite?); had a Korean War vet explain that one to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 And very impressive on the PIAT knowledge; I had always assumed it was springloaded only, but as you point out there was indeed a cartridge fitted to the tail of the bomb (balustite?); had a Korean War vet explain that one to me.The kick from the cartridge fitted to the tail of the projectile was supposed to recock the spring ready to be fired again. Unfortunately if the firer didn't brace himself properly it didn't recock and he then had to go through the hassle of manually recocking it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by DevilDog: I haven't experienced this in CMAK yet, but I DO have real life 'zook experience (Marine Corps SMAW). You can't fire them inside buildings at all because the back blast will kill you. The concussion is almost disabling out in the open - you have no frame of reference until you experience it yourself. Its' kind of like someonw pounding your whole body with 20# sledge-hammersSo we should be poking and prodding BFC about this minor oversight then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 So we should be poking and prodding BFC about this minor oversight then? Well BFC put it into CMBO so I don't know what's happened with CMAK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDog Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 So we should be poking and prodding BFC about this minor oversight then? Well I don't have experience with WW2 vintage bazookas, so maybe the backblast from them isn't quite so severe as the SMAW. But I seem to remember reading somewhere (I have no idea which book it might have been) that the one thing the PIAT had going for it was that it was the only anti-tank "rocket" that could be fired from inside a building due to back blast. Otherwise the PIAT was considered inferior to other systems because of the low velocity of the round. I wasn't kidding about there being no frame of reference for firing the SMAW though. One of the benefits of being a Marine officer is that you get to fire all the USMC weapon systems up to battalion level (with the exception of the Dragon). So this instructor is feeding us this line about how you can't fire the SMAW inside an enclosed space because the back blast will kill you, and we're all looking at each other thinking "what kind of sea story is this guy trying to tell us?" After firing one round from a position out in the open I didn't want to fire any more I can tell you. And there was no doubt in my mind that you would indeed die if you shot that thing inside a structure. Just to give you an idea of the kind of force behind the SMAW, the bunker busting round can penetrate 11' of packed earth, and the anti-armor round penetrates 300mm of homogenous steel IIRC. [ November 21, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Unfortunately, PIAT couldn't be fired at extreme down angles as gravity pulled the bomb out of the launcher, or so I am told, anyway. Meaning getting up high in a building and firing at weak top armour was sometimes not possible (?) Perhaps the backblast effects aren't in the demo but are somehow, magically, in the full version? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I think BFC has improved the anti-tank rocket technology over the past few years to elimitate the back blast. Didn't Steve and Charles vacation in Penemunde? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I just ran a test with CMBB and there's no backblast effect in that It was definitely in CMBO, I wonder what happened to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebulon Pleasure Beast Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by Ant: I just ran a test with CMBB and there's no backblast effect in that It was definitely in CMBO, I wonder what happened to it. Err, there is a backblast effect in CMBB. I've had several schrecks panic and set houses to fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Hmmmm. I just ran several tests of a panzerscreck team and a platoon HQ inside a small peasant shack. Not one firing of the panzerschreck resulted in either the schreck team or the HQ becoming supressed. Yet I remember that happening in CMBO (which isn't installed at the moment so I can't run a test on that) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Rascal Posted November 22, 2003 Author Share Posted November 22, 2003 Ugh. OK for those who can't recall this effect in CM perhaps a screenie will help. I have just fired a 'schreck in CMBB from a hut, and it immediately took a casualty, went pinned, and set the hut on fire all at once 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Unfortunately, PIAT couldn't be fired at extreme down angles as gravity pulled the bomb out of the launcher, or so I am told, anyway. Meaning getting up high in a building and firing at weak top armour was sometimes not possible (?) Really? I was under the impression that there was a work around for this: A piece of string was looped around the projectile and fastened to either side of the launcher. Strong enough to hold the projectile in place while you tilt it down, but it will break when the PIAT is fired. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 Originally posted by von Lucke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Unfortunately, PIAT couldn't be fired at extreme down angles as gravity pulled the bomb out of the launcher, or so I am told, anyway. Meaning getting up high in a building and firing at weak top armour was sometimes not possible (?) Really? I was under the impression that there was a work around for this: A piece of string was looped around the projectile and fastened to either side of the launcher. Strong enough to hold the projectile in place while you tilt it down, but it will break when the PIAT is fired. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by von Lucke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Unfortunately, PIAT couldn't be fired at extreme down angles as gravity pulled the bomb out of the launcher, or so I am told, anyway. Meaning getting up high in a building and firing at weak top armour was sometimes not possible (?) Really? I was under the impression that there was a work around for this: A piece of string was looped around the projectile and fastened to either side of the launcher. Strong enough to hold the projectile in place while you tilt it down, but it will break when the PIAT is fired. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 Originally posted by The Green Rascal: Ugh. OK for those who can't recall this effect in CM perhaps a screenie will help. I have just fired a 'schreck in CMBB from a hut, and it immediately took a casualty, went pinned, and set the hut on fire all at once But is it possible that in this case the casualty and suppression came from the fire and not the backblast? Have you tried this in a less inflammable building? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 I, too have noticed the lack of black-bast effects in CMAK. It seems in the italian scenario (my favourite of teh two), the shrecks can fire at the shermans with impunity, once they are close enough. I was wondering what is BTS's official word on this? If it IS a bug, it could mean quite large strategic implications. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKibler Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 Originally posted by MAsta_KFC: I, too have noticed the lack of black-bast effects in CMAK. <snip> the shrecks can fire at the shermans with impunity, once they are close enough. I was wondering what is BTS's official word on this? If it IS a bug, it could mean quite large strategic implications. Ditto here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 Maybe BFC overmodelled the effects of backblast in CMBO and have backed off in CMAK. If it was that hazardous to post bazooka/faust teams in houses neither side would have done it. Yet, it was common practice, as this late war American AAR attests: Bazookas Note, also the broken radio incurred by the narrator's tank. Radio breakdowns/hits/dropouts should be an essential feature in CMx. I gather they were pretty common. Armored platoons would need to pay more attention to maintaining cohesive formations and we'd see a lot less free roamin' then there is now. And how come we still don't have barns?!! :mad: [ November 22, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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