What does Squad Leader do better than CM?

[thewood]

Originally posted by GJK:

I disagree. It's 25 years strong and growing. With the release of the ASL Starter Kits, there's a new generation that is learning the system. It may never have it's heyday of 1985 but it isn't going to die - not anytime soon if ever. It still has the largest and most gaming conventions held around the world and the largest following of any board wargame.

I went to a couple of conventions in the mid-90's and the average age of the gamers was probably around 30. Now look at the average age...it has to be mid 40's to 50.

I don't believe ASL will ever die, but, as MMP can probably tell you, it is getting smaller and smaller. In about 20 years, when those same convention goers start hitting the average life expectency, it will start getting real small real fast.

Also keep in mind that for the 25 years ASL has been around, PC games like CM didn't exist. Now ASL isn't just competing with Tobruk or Sniper, its competing with a whole host of PC and console games.

[Peterk]

Hmmmm....the next ASL module, Valor of the Guards hit its preorder mark in a couple of days, I think its up to over 2000 now. It was very cool to watch that number skyrocket so quickly.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/preorder/preorder.php

When that happened, people were talking about how it was some kind of record not seen in over 20 years. Interest is really quite high right now and I'm sure I would have way less problems finding a few PBEM opponents for ASL than I would with CMBB.

We have VASL now and they didn't back then. A lot of people like myself who don't have a regular face to face opponent are now able to play a lot anyways which wasn't the case 10 years ago.

Conventions and tournaments only represent a very small cross-section of people who play the game. If we had a CMBB convention, how many people would show up and what do you think their ages would be? Most likely mostly the 30 and up crowd as well.

[Brent Pollock]

Stalingrad sells even better than the Bulge, baby!

[GJK]

Oh yeah, no doubt. RB or KGPI? Not even a choice.

[Peterk]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

Stalingrad sells even better than the Bulge, baby!

I think we finally figured out who Dr. Love really is!

[GJK]

I'm finishing up a little pbem ASLSK S9 with Michael Dorosh and am reminded of just how fun this game is (even the "lite" SK). Can't wait for "Tanks" to come out (finally armor!) and then I'm going to study up for VOTG, I want to do some battle on that map!

[Peterk]

Gary,

If you want to try something easy that features the size of OOB you'll see in a VOTG or RB with a nice big map, I just released a campaign game for playtest designed specifically for newer players. No vehicles, no OBA. It's in the usual ASL spot.

[GJK]

Very nice - I just emailed Michael about easing up to VOtG rules - I'll go grab that right now!

Edit: Peter, I assumed it was at SZO but don't see it in the files section (unless I'm overlooking it) - do you have a link?

[ September 05, 2006, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: GJK ]

[Peterk]

Hi Gary, it's on the front page of the main forum.

http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45037

[GJK]

Oh wow, that is big! Looks great though. Just emailed Michael to see if he's up to the challenge.

[Peterk]

Let me know how it goes....I think you will both be surprised by how quickly it will play.

[Brent Pollock]

Ooooooo...and it uses PL 2.5...now, if I could just get the ASL community to convert to using my variant of the SASL Command rules...

[PFMM]

I missed reading this thread, but now that I've seen it OhhhArrrggg!!!! The nostalgia! The nostalgia! Played it for about twenty years, giving it up due to lack of time and space.

I think that boardgames do just as good a job as computer games up to a point, and that point is the level of detail that some gamers are demanding, resulting in an insane number of interdependent sub systems to be learnt and manipulated. Comptuters are king at crunching systems, it's that simple.

However, one thing that is lacking in almost all computer wargaming is interactivity. In CM I take my turn, you take your turn, we then sit down and watch the results. In SL/ASL I move my units one at a time while you wonder what I'm up to and what to currently do about it.

Should I fire at that leading vehicle or wait for a better target? Will he try to overun me preventing other shots? Maybe he will bring up infantry next? And so on, the point is that CM has none of these decisions modelled. Gunners will fire on the first target to come in range, they won't wait for a flank shot or hope it goes some where else, and I think it's poorer for it.

Which is why I still play boardgames more than computer games (not playing SL/ASL due to space limitations is a weak argument now that I'm playing The Next War's campaign, but relearning all those rules!), there is so little interaction and there is no real feeling of compteting against a live opponent, the one thing all gamers crave.

P.S. KGP I&II beats RB any day of the week.

[thewood]

Originally posted by PFMM:

Should I fire at that leading vehicle or wait for a better target? Will he try to overun me preventing other shots? Maybe he will bring up infantry next? And so on, the point is that CM has none of these decisions modelled. Gunners will fire on the first target to come in range, they won't wait for a flank shot or hope it goes some where else, and I think it's poorer for it.

That right there is the biggest weakness of the ASL system. You have the ultimate god's view. There is no wondering about enemy units. With the exception of a few HIP units, you know what could be coming around the bend.

btw, I am aware of VASL and have played around with it. How do you do defensive fire through VASL? I just curious on the mechanics.

[PFMM]

thewood, I disagree.

In both CM and SL the player has a view of the battlefield that would be the envy of any commander living or dead. In both systems they have a fair idea of their enemies' forces, their likely routes of advance and how they will be disposed. Conversely both systems have equal opportunity to create confusion, with CM it is sound and spotting irregularities, with SL it is deceptive use of concealment counters.

You can't sell me the hidden units argument as the moment I sit down to play CM I know he is out there. And even in a design your own scenario(which SL also has) I know how much force he has.

As to VASL, if it's online your opponent will let you know, if it's PBEM it will take multiple transmissions if you adhere to rules, or you can adopt the SL mechanism.

[Peterk]

How do you do defensive fire through VASL? I just curious on the mechanics.

By e-mail, moving player prepares a log that defender goes through line by line. If both players are on at the same time, it's done in the normal way, via an interrupt.

There is a nice tension in an ASL MPh which perhaps CM doesn't have....because the pieces are being moved one by one in an almost chesslike fashion. Trying to find a winning combination, luring your opponent into taking a shot that opens up a movement opportunity. Might not be realistic but definitely fun. Static defender definitely has more to do.

[ September 07, 2006, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Peterk ]

[GJK]

How do you do defensive fire through VASL? I just curious on the mechanics.

That was my question when first playing VASL via pbem. It actually works out pretty good if you coordinate with your opponent just a bit beforehand on some ground rules.

Some like to move a few units at a time first and then will send the log back at that point to await moving the rest of their units in the next log after viewing the results of any DF up to there.

Some will move all of their units and add a note in the log to the effect of "stop log and return upon entering Residual"

And some will move everyone and say to just finish all your defensive fire, irregardless of residual fire or breaks.

[thewood]

But there is a big difference in knowing your opponents approximate strength and actually seeing the enemy units moving across the board. I agree the overhead view in boardgames and PC games is also not too realistic with real-time information.

I still play a lot of board wargames and the one mechanic I always tried to work around with my partner is not having each unit move its full allocation all at once.

Beyond seeing all units, the gamiest thing in boardgames is that sequencing of movement. I have tried to work out a system where each unit moves a hex and then the next unit moves a hex, and so on. We try not to be rigid, so as to keep admin down, but it does change the entire feel of the game. This is a fault with all turn-based games. It is actually the one thing that turned me on to CM.

[PFMM]

"But there is a big difference in knowing your opponents approximate strength and actually seeing the enemy units moving across the board."

I agree, but the same applies to concealment counters in SL/ASL. One cannot assume that any stack with a concealment marker is wholey composed of units, or any units at all. Beware of masters in this regard!

The aspect that turned me onto CM was the vision of the battlefield it presented. I still think it's unrivalled.

I would argue against impulse movement (brings back all those horrible Panzerbush arguments), as it's not as realistic as you may think. Talk to any real life commander or read some operation manuals to see why

[GJK]

The nice thing about VASL is the ability to actually conceal (HIP) units from your opponent. I suppose you do the same thing with the boardgame version by jotting down the hex #'s that your HIPsters are in, but VASL makes it nice when you see a transparent unit there and but your opponent sees none. Several other features that VASL has that's really nice.